@Bojan Majdandzic I see that Alex is no longer a Byton "influencer" and has now switched his allegiance to Xpeng - he's certainly resilient! 😁 Great video, though!
PLEASE NOTE: In this "E for ELECTRIC" video, Sandy Munro is sometimes talking about OTHER VEHICLES that he's dealing with. For example, "preventing rollover*", "no roof", "not real airbags", "you can pull the doors off". He doesn't mean Aptera.
Great video! It has great views of the interior. The car seems more production ready than I expected for a prototype. The car has a full color coordinated interior, carpet, seats, dashboard, door panels, glowgo, defrost vents, wiper cowl, aero on A arms, etc.
I LOVE IT! It's a perfect example of form follows function. It's beautiful. It just looks "right". I can't wait for delivery.
In the interview, they describe the doors as "butterfly wing doors". They should call them "Lepidoptera" doors for Greek/Latin consistency. Seriously, they should patent that.
Sandy Munro is always interesting. I agree that there was lots of great information about our car. However, I am confused by the skin heat exchange concept that was revealed. I kept waiting for them to say the underside of the body. I spend some time in the tropics and black topped cars just don't work well here because it is such a heat collector color. Has anyone got better information about this concept?
Found some discussion at: https://www.aptera.us/forum/aptera-tech-questions/solar-cell-cooling
I believe I read somewhere that the underside is designed to radiate heat.
If comfort is your concern, just click your phone's app a few minutes before driving, to pre-condition the cabin with A/C air.
Even if Aptera ends up with an air-cooled battery, chilled A/C liquid could be used to chill the motors' required liquid coolant, flowing through the skin.
@kiteboarder Where did you find the info about an air-cooled battery pack? Considering that there will be no air intakes (other than for cabin air, below the windshield) and the battery packs mounted inside the body shell I'm at a loss to understand how adequate airflow could be achieved...
Also, with the motors in the wheels - exposed to the atmosphere - they are likely to require less active cooling than are their power-control units that are mounted inside the body shell.
Maybe, although Aptera's power control units will also require about 60% less cooling than any other EV, since they're handling a total of about 60% less power.
Liquid-cooling requires airflow too (radiator). Convection battery cooling can use cabin air that can be chilled well below ambient by the car's A/C. The vids explain about using the car's outer skin for cooling.
@kiteboarder How are they using 60% less power? Aptera is not 60% less powerful than other EVs: Leaf uses an 80 kW motor, 500e uses an 87 kW motor, E-Niro/Kona EV/Bolt all use 150 kW motors. Plus, with a controller for each motor, Aptera will have two or three - where the other vehicles I mentioned have only one.
The whole point of the "micro-channels under the skin" is to use the BODY of the Aptera as a radiator, relying on external airflow. Recycling cabin air through the AC system to push cold air through the battery pack would seem to be quite a trade-off in energy usage as AC units (or heat pumps) require power to run and still produce waste heat that would need to be dissipated.
Ignoring the relatively very small power use from headlights, seat heat, etc:
Most EVs' total motor output averages more than 0.25kWh/mile. (4 miles/kWh)
Aptera's total motor output averages 0.1kWh/mile. That's 60% less.
Total Aptera power is divided between its 2 motor controllers, so each one controls only half, or about 20% of a typical EV.
Even considering that there will be no air intakes, adequate airflow is achieved using the BODY of the Aptera as a radiator, relying on external airflow.
A/C in my own 7-yr-old EV uses about 0.25kW. However, nearly none would be needed to cool my battery. It produces very little heat even during 6.6kW charging or 12kW driving. It stays cool with just fluid flow through the radiator & no power even to its fan, even when stopped.
@kiteboarder You're looking at overall averages: Although it might take less power to keep the Aptera rolling, it will take an almost identical amount to accelerate. Instead of one controller controlling one motor, Aptera will have two controllers controlling two motors or three controllers controlling three motors.
If the battery cells are to be cooled by convection there needs to be airflow over the cells themselves. If airflow over the body is used to cool the cells they must be in direct contact with the body, making it conductive cooling: Air cools the body, the body cools the cells. In one of the presentations the Founders mentioned that the belly of the vehicle might need to be aluminum for better heat radiation - and radiation is all about surface area.
The AC on your EV uses about .25 kW what - per minute? Per mile? If you were driving long distances at expressway speeds your battery would be producing a lot of heat. If you, then, needed to DC charge to continue your journey - more heat. Running AC systems generate heat and transfer heat from the air they're cooling - so even more heat. Pushing air through a radiator while moving usually doesn't require the use of a fan - fans come into play when there is no air movement. If your fan isn't running while charging it just means that the fluid being pumped through the cooling system is at the optimal temperature and the "slower" the charge, the less heat it generates.
- Aptera is much lighter, so it takes much less power to accelerate (F = M x A).
- You presented controllers as needing cooling. 6kW flowing through 1 controller & 1 motor produces about the same amount of heat as a total of 6kW flowing through 3 controllers & 3 motors (2kW each).
2nd: Agreed. A convection-cooled battery could use a fan with ambient air, possibly with A/C chilling available, & auto-recirculate if needed to cool it below ambient.
3rd: My A/C uses about 0.25kW average, non-stop, like an old-fashioned 250W light bulb. It's a way of comparing it to something like my motor using about 18kW at 60mph.
I, too would have thought my battery would get warmer than it does, but there are a great many different types of Li-ion battery, even within a sub-set like "Nickel Cobalt Manganese", & all produce different amounts of heat at the same current. Driving fast uses more power but also creates more cooling airflow. I once drove 50 miles non-stop at expressway speed with A/C on in 113F, then stopped & immediately charged at 6.6kW, & it didn't even need A/C to chill the coolant. Just the rad fan cycling on fairly high for a couple minutes. My point was that it would take very little A/C power to create that small amount of required cooling.
@kiteboarder If you're pushing it, yes - but it takes the same amount of power to set the motors spinning. It just takes less time to get a lighter vehicle up to speed.
The Elaphe controllers are built on aluminum chiller plates for fluid cooling. From what I gather their operating temperature is somewhere in the 140°F range. We haven't been told anything about the AC inverter, the on-board charger, the DC-DC converter or any of the other parts of the power system.
If you were driving at highway speed then your radiator was removing heat from the coolant - there would be no reason to further chill the coolant for AC charging. DC charging, though, is an entirely different animal. And if all the Aptera can do is sit there and radiate heat through its skin, it's no wonder they're limiting DC charging to 50 kW.
The AC in my Clarity pulls about .3 kW and the resistive heating element a bit more. What this equates to is about .1 mi of range every 10 minutes when cooling while parked and about .1 mi of range every 6 minutes when heating while parked.
At present, liquid cooling of traction battery packs is the most efficient way of removing excess heat to keep the cells at their optimal temperature. We know that doing nothing - relying upon ambient air for passive cooling - isn't conducive to long-term cell health, thanks to Nissan's Leaf. But, right now, only Lexus has talked about "air conditioning" a traction battery. So Aptera's skin radiation is as untested a technology as would be circulating refrigerated air through a battery pack. IMHO the team in San Diego must be computing their butts off, simulating possible outcomes.
did the interior of the Aptera remind you of the interior of a model 3, screen, display, gear leveler and blinker switch. i hope they have or working on a partnership with TESLA motors.
Yes. I hope they are working on a partnership too. Both Elon and Chris have said things that make that seem plausible, at least in relation to the Tesla Supercharging network.
Did you know the original Aptera had a large center screen long before Tesla showed theirs in a Model S? It is now the new normal for 21st century vehicles.
I believe the T3 & Aptera both have a LEVER (stalk) for selecting the "gear" (P, R, N, D) on the right side of the steering column.
Most EVs do have 1-speed gears, but they never shift. The selector merely turns power off/on, in the appropriate direction, & moves the Park pin in/out.
Aptera has no gears at all, with direct-drive wheel motors.
@kiteboarder In the Munro video, Chris seems to be accessing P, R, N and D on the touchscreen. As the system is entirely "drive by wire" there's really no need for a mechanical stalk.
Thanks, I'll have to take another look. I wasn't watching the screen much, but I thought I could see 4 upper-case letters on the right stalk.
No absolute need for a physical switch, but it sure is nice. My "drive by wire" EV has physical buttons for P, R, N, D, & I appreciate that I always have access to them, so I'd hope that if they're on a screen that they at least show continuously. I also like that when parking I can alternate between D & R without looking. I've never driven a car where I couldn't do that.
I just checked the next gen of my car, & they changed it to a shift lever instead of buttons. Also, the mid-gen upgrade changed from volume buttons on the dash to a knob. Function over form.
I'm guessing that the display is in some kind of simulation mode, to make it easy to test the interface.
Or perhaps it really is in 'D', and unlike my Chevy Volt it just doesn't move until you step on the 'gas' (the + pedal). Steve likes to show how light & low drag it is by pushing the Aptera back & forth with his hand. He couldn't do that with the car in 'P', although 'N' would be a safer mode.
Thankfully, my EV just puts itself into park when I shut it off. "Park by wire". It's fortunate since I've always had a stick that I'd just leave in gear when parked.
All three numbers in bottom left corner say "123". I'm sure that HMI is just a demo layout. Alot of work goes into programming those systems and connecting the data to the screen. Main things like speedometer probably work, but others might not just yet.
Thanks Kerbe. Video is definitely worth a watch.
Was just about to link. Nice to see more of the cars interior from the walkabout.
Great information about the new leased space and microfactory concept.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64JbHWU2fSo
@Bojan Majdandzic I see that Alex is no longer a Byton "influencer" and has now switched his allegiance to Xpeng - he's certainly resilient! 😁 Great video, though!
PLEASE NOTE: In this "E for ELECTRIC" video, Sandy Munro is sometimes talking about OTHER VEHICLES that he's dealing with. For example, "preventing rollover*", "no roof", "not real airbags", "you can pull the doors off". He doesn't mean Aptera.
* Click here for vid of rollover-free rapid cornering.
Great video! It has great views of the interior. The car seems more production ready than I expected for a prototype. The car has a full color coordinated interior, carpet, seats, dashboard, door panels, glowgo, defrost vents, wiper cowl, aero on A arms, etc.
I LOVE IT! It's a perfect example of form follows function. It's beautiful. It just looks "right". I can't wait for delivery.
In the interview, they describe the doors as "butterfly wing doors". They should call them "Lepidoptera" doors for Greek/Latin consistency. Seriously, they should patent that.
@boreal Considering the name means, "without wings", I was surprised to hear that description... They actually open more like gill-flaps.
Sandy Munro is always interesting. I agree that there was lots of great information about our car. However, I am confused by the skin heat exchange concept that was revealed. I kept waiting for them to say the underside of the body. I spend some time in the tropics and black topped cars just don't work well here because it is such a heat collector color. Has anyone got better information about this concept?
Found some discussion at: https://www.aptera.us/forum/aptera-tech-questions/solar-cell-cooling
I believe I read somewhere that the underside is designed to radiate heat.
If comfort is your concern, just click your phone's app a few minutes before driving, to pre-condition the cabin with A/C air.
Even if Aptera ends up with an air-cooled battery, chilled A/C liquid could be used to chill the motors' required liquid coolant, flowing through the skin.
@kiteboarder Where did you find the info about an air-cooled battery pack? Considering that there will be no air intakes (other than for cabin air, below the windshield) and the battery packs mounted inside the body shell I'm at a loss to understand how adequate airflow could be achieved...
Also, with the motors in the wheels - exposed to the atmosphere - they are likely to require less active cooling than are their power-control units that are mounted inside the body shell.
Maybe, although Aptera's power control units will also require about 60% less cooling than any other EV, since they're handling a total of about 60% less power.
Liquid-cooling requires airflow too (radiator). Convection battery cooling can use cabin air that can be chilled well below ambient by the car's A/C. The vids explain about using the car's outer skin for cooling.
From line 23 of Aptera's FAQ Spreadsheet:
Q: "What is the Cell size and Pack temperature controls?"
A: "We are testing 2170s now and we may use liquid cooling but are testing to see if we can just convection cool to save weight."
@kiteboarder How are they using 60% less power? Aptera is not 60% less powerful than other EVs: Leaf uses an 80 kW motor, 500e uses an 87 kW motor, E-Niro/Kona EV/Bolt all use 150 kW motors. Plus, with a controller for each motor, Aptera will have two or three - where the other vehicles I mentioned have only one.
The whole point of the "micro-channels under the skin" is to use the BODY of the Aptera as a radiator, relying on external airflow. Recycling cabin air through the AC system to push cold air through the battery pack would seem to be quite a trade-off in energy usage as AC units (or heat pumps) require power to run and still produce waste heat that would need to be dissipated.
Ignoring the relatively very small power use from headlights, seat heat, etc:
Most EVs' total motor output averages more than 0.25kWh/mile. (4 miles/kWh)
Aptera's total motor output averages 0.1kWh/mile. That's 60% less.
Total Aptera power is divided between its 2 motor controllers, so each one controls only half, or about 20% of a typical EV.
Even considering that there will be no air intakes, adequate airflow is achieved using the BODY of the Aptera as a radiator, relying on external airflow.
A/C in my own 7-yr-old EV uses about 0.25kW. However, nearly none would be needed to cool my battery. It produces very little heat even during 6.6kW charging or 12kW driving. It stays cool with just fluid flow through the radiator & no power even to its fan, even when stopped.
@kiteboarder You're looking at overall averages: Although it might take less power to keep the Aptera rolling, it will take an almost identical amount to accelerate. Instead of one controller controlling one motor, Aptera will have two controllers controlling two motors or three controllers controlling three motors.
If the battery cells are to be cooled by convection there needs to be airflow over the cells themselves. If airflow over the body is used to cool the cells they must be in direct contact with the body, making it conductive cooling: Air cools the body, the body cools the cells. In one of the presentations the Founders mentioned that the belly of the vehicle might need to be aluminum for better heat radiation - and radiation is all about surface area.
The AC on your EV uses about .25 kW what - per minute? Per mile? If you were driving long distances at expressway speeds your battery would be producing a lot of heat. If you, then, needed to DC charge to continue your journey - more heat. Running AC systems generate heat and transfer heat from the air they're cooling - so even more heat. Pushing air through a radiator while moving usually doesn't require the use of a fan - fans come into play when there is no air movement. If your fan isn't running while charging it just means that the fluid being pumped through the cooling system is at the optimal temperature and the "slower" the charge, the less heat it generates.
Mostly agreed, with a few exceptions:
1st Paragraph:
- Aptera is much lighter, so it takes much less power to accelerate (F = M x A).
- You presented controllers as needing cooling. 6kW flowing through 1 controller & 1 motor produces about the same amount of heat as a total of 6kW flowing through 3 controllers & 3 motors (2kW each).
2nd: Agreed. A convection-cooled battery could use a fan with ambient air, possibly with A/C chilling available, & auto-recirculate if needed to cool it below ambient.
3rd: My A/C uses about 0.25kW average, non-stop, like an old-fashioned 250W light bulb. It's a way of comparing it to something like my motor using about 18kW at 60mph.
I, too would have thought my battery would get warmer than it does, but there are a great many different types of Li-ion battery, even within a sub-set like "Nickel Cobalt Manganese", & all produce different amounts of heat at the same current. Driving fast uses more power but also creates more cooling airflow. I once drove 50 miles non-stop at expressway speed with A/C on in 113F, then stopped & immediately charged at 6.6kW, & it didn't even need A/C to chill the coolant. Just the rad fan cycling on fairly high for a couple minutes. My point was that it would take very little A/C power to create that small amount of required cooling.
@kiteboarder If you're pushing it, yes - but it takes the same amount of power to set the motors spinning. It just takes less time to get a lighter vehicle up to speed.
The Elaphe controllers are built on aluminum chiller plates for fluid cooling. From what I gather their operating temperature is somewhere in the 140°F range. We haven't been told anything about the AC inverter, the on-board charger, the DC-DC converter or any of the other parts of the power system.
If you were driving at highway speed then your radiator was removing heat from the coolant - there would be no reason to further chill the coolant for AC charging. DC charging, though, is an entirely different animal. And if all the Aptera can do is sit there and radiate heat through its skin, it's no wonder they're limiting DC charging to 50 kW.
The AC in my Clarity pulls about .3 kW and the resistive heating element a bit more. What this equates to is about .1 mi of range every 10 minutes when cooling while parked and about .1 mi of range every 6 minutes when heating while parked.
At present, liquid cooling of traction battery packs is the most efficient way of removing excess heat to keep the cells at their optimal temperature. We know that doing nothing - relying upon ambient air for passive cooling - isn't conducive to long-term cell health, thanks to Nissan's Leaf. But, right now, only Lexus has talked about "air conditioning" a traction battery. So Aptera's skin radiation is as untested a technology as would be circulating refrigerated air through a battery pack. IMHO the team in San Diego must be computing their butts off, simulating possible outcomes.
did the interior of the Aptera remind you of the interior of a model 3, screen, display, gear leveler and blinker switch. i hope they have or working on a partnership with TESLA motors.
Yes. I hope they are working on a partnership too. Both Elon and Chris have said things that make that seem plausible, at least in relation to the Tesla Supercharging network.
Did you know the original Aptera had a large center screen long before Tesla showed theirs in a Model S? It is now the new normal for 21st century vehicles.
What's a "gear leveler"?
I believe the T3 & Aptera both have a LEVER (stalk) for selecting the "gear" (P, R, N, D) on the right side of the steering column.
Most EVs do have 1-speed gears, but they never shift. The selector merely turns power off/on, in the appropriate direction, & moves the Park pin in/out.
Aptera has no gears at all, with direct-drive wheel motors.
@kiteboarder In the Munro video, Chris seems to be accessing P, R, N and D on the touchscreen. As the system is entirely "drive by wire" there's really no need for a mechanical stalk.
Thanks, I'll have to take another look. I wasn't watching the screen much, but I thought I could see 4 upper-case letters on the right stalk.
No absolute need for a physical switch, but it sure is nice. My "drive by wire" EV has physical buttons for P, R, N, D, & I appreciate that I always have access to them, so I'd hope that if they're on a screen that they at least show continuously. I also like that when parking I can alternate between D & R without looking. I've never driven a car where I couldn't do that.
I just checked the next gen of my car, & they changed it to a shift lever instead of buttons. Also, the mid-gen upgrade changed from volume buttons on the dash to a knob. Function over form.
I see what appears to read”D” on the screen but isn’t that odd as the car wasn’t being driven ”on” during this walk around?
I'm guessing that the display is in some kind of simulation mode, to make it easy to test the interface.
Or perhaps it really is in 'D', and unlike my Chevy Volt it just doesn't move until you step on the 'gas' (the + pedal). Steve likes to show how light & low drag it is by pushing the Aptera back & forth with his hand. He couldn't do that with the car in 'P', although 'N' would be a safer mode.
Never had an EV
My present ICE vehicles would be beeping at me if left out of P when powered off
Maybe “ D“ was for Demo
Thx
Thankfully, my EV just puts itself into park when I shut it off. "Park by wire". It's fortunate since I've always had a stick that I'd just leave in gear when parked.
@kiteboarder I just learned this the other day, when I pressed the "power" button before pressing the "park" button!
All three numbers in bottom left corner say "123". I'm sure that HMI is just a demo layout. Alot of work goes into programming those systems and connecting the data to the screen. Main things like speedometer probably work, but others might not just yet.
Whew! Functionality wins:
I'm still pretty caught up in form. Nice combination.