Hi! Newcomer here to the Aptera community. I was wondering if there would be any front cargo "frunk" space like most other electric cars? Understandable if not, but I couldn't find a clear yes or no anywhere.
I love this car's design so much. I have to believe there's a niche market that at least one manufacturer can fit into with a car like this. I was a big fan of the Elio years back, and hope that Aptera has much better luck this time around with securing funding to bring this to market.
My main concern, besides funding, is unit price. Is the Aptera capable of competing against the announced NET 2023 $25k Tesla model? I suspect there could be a niche for Aptera regardless, but I think it's worth asking: At what point does the efficiency not really matter anymore when you could get a larger, cheaper, automated, and still highly efficient EV instead? Any delays to Aptera rollout makes this question more valid, and if past experience is anything to go by, delays are likely. Could a future Aptera model be engineered with an even higher emphasis on affordability? Like in the $15-20K range? I'm sure there's all sorts of other models Aptera is dreaming of building already, and I hope they get made :)
Overall though, I'm super excited for Aptera and the future being engineered right in front of our eyes. This will be a wonderful journey and I can't wait!
Thanks!
No they say they are utilizing all of that front space ( at one time they thought there would have been a space but not bigger than a six pack of soda)
They gave nit announced the price of their 25kWh /250 mile range and if only 100kW FWD it had to come in under the $29k limited Paradigm model they Sold Out on Dec 4 IMHO¯\_(ツ)_/¯
With a 3 wheel tadpole design you need to have weight in between the front wheels. It would not the wise to move weight to the rear to create a frunk.
@Derick Perkins
The 25 kw model (250 mile range) comes in at $25,900K
www.flickr.com/photos/24602659@N04/4944413552/
@Matthijs Remember - that version was intended to be a plug-in hybrid: The engine and motor both lived under the nosecone with active driveshafts running to the front wheels.
I remember, this picture was just a bit of fun. Would be crazy for Aptera to be able to create frunk space.
Here’s what the the old model looked like....that I got a ride in
in NJ ~2009
Awesome info thanks people! :) I was just curious about the frunk possibility but am happy to have no frunk as well. If anything, it makes practical sense to just have all of the storage space in one compartment.
So excited to see and drive an Aptera someday. <3 Love it.
If you do put a frunk in, this will not affect the driving performance. If I put two bags of groceries in there and then put my fat ass in the driver's seat I am not unbalancing the car. If there is space in the rear hatch where I can put a few old 12v batteries behind the line of the rear wheel, I should be able to put a few bags of groceries. Or at LEAST put my take-out food in there so the smells don't linger inside the car.
It seems Tesla's $25k car is based on cost reductions made possible by a new battery design that isn't currently in production. Tesla isn't the only battery manufacturer out there. It's very possible that Aptera will also benefit from similar improvements in battery technology and, as a result, hit a lower price point by 2023.
While possible, it doesn't seem likely for any other supplier to reach such massive economies of scale with a new battery design anytime soon. But I'd be very happy to be wrong about that lol. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. Regardless, it's an exciting future!
This touches on something I’ve been thinking about in regards to Aptera. Back about 2005 a book came out called Blue Ocean Strategy. A lengthy book about a relatively simple idea. Basically if you offer a product that is significantly different from anything currently available, but which is still recognized as desirable, then you get to enjoy a period of no real competition before your perspective competitors catch a clue and come after you and your customers. So you‘d best use that grace period to keep innovating so you can maintain the lead gained from that head start.
Tesla is a prime example of this. They resolved to make the most efficient, safe, fun to drive car and then did it. Years into that success, their competitors are taking notice and making the huge investments to try and catch up. Tesla hasn’t been sitting on their hands either. All the innovation on all sides is a pleasure to watch.
Now Aptera has come along and resolved to make the most efficient, safe and fun to drive personal transport. Pitch all the anachronistic preconceptions tied to the car and something really phenomenal materializes. All the big auto makers, even Tesla, seem fixated on making ever larger bricks zoom ever faster down the road exactly the way that bricks don’t, unless huge amounts of propulsive force is put behind them. Aptera is going exactly the other way. Me and 9000+ other folks so far think it is the right way.
Let’s assume that everything goes to plan and in the span of a handful of years, Aptera puts tens of thousands of really spiffy autocycles on the road. Then what? I wouldn’t mind if they are a one trick pony, if it is a damned fine trick that keeps getting better. I’ve seen the aspirational notions of developing more conventional vehicles later. I’m a bit dubious about that. Seems too much like giving up on the blue ocean strategy (circling back to the book) and jumping into the book’s red ocean (because it is cutthroat) of mainstream auto manufacturing. Too easy to give up your advantage and go under. I would be happy to be proven wrong about that but I remain dubious.
The vehicle they are working on now though, glorious!
Steve Fambro's mantra of "simplify' will continue to be a winning strategy, and the comparatively low capital requirements of their build technology will also continue to be a major advantage. I think they will continue to have a lot to offer as they set their sights on other projects.
Another car manufacturer - Lotus - has had the philosophy of "Simplify and add lightness" from the get go. As a result their sports cars can compete with others that have much more powerful motors.
You can watch Super sevens hold their own against Porsches during large chunks of the Nurburgring.
Excellent schematics, thanks. It gives me a better understanding of the design. Imagine the new Tesla Model 2 at $25k plus a re-enacted $7,500 EV credit.
That would be sweet though that might also give Tesla an unfair competitive advantage over Aptera. Aptera does have profit margin, but does it have that much? Which brings to mind, they better start lobbying fast for them tax credits and state incentives stat!
@fanfare Hi fan. My thoughts exactly. Tesla will always be the comparison to any brand of EV. But I like that new companies are starting up as well as existing companies coming out with EV's. The more offerings, price categories, new technology, and competition is good for the marketplace and consumer. Even if the automotive EV manufactures rebate doesn't get extended, Tesla's $25k model will still be a viable competitor to all EV's. It extends further than just buying the car since one then gets access to their charging network as well as a future of self-driving technology. As far as Aptera being profitable on startup is hard to imagine. Many new technologies don't start making a profit until after the introduction models. They should be able to get the $2,500 motorcycle rebated which currently exists. But we will see.
@OceanDragon So let's do the math: The Aptera 2-seater currently qualifies for a Federal motorcycle EV tax rebate of $2.5K. It's lowest MSRP is is $26K = $23.5K total. Tesla's Model 2 4-seater's lowst MSRP base model price of $25K - minus $7.5K = $17.5K That puts Tesla's 4-seater at $6K below the Aptera. And it would seem, all from an unfair advantage. And add more unfairness to its advantage. In the state of New Jersey, for example, you can add about another $2.5K to the Tesla incentive. That would make the Tesla Model 2 $8.5K less expensive than the Aptera. Decisions, decisions decisions. Plus now Tesla is the Goliath of EV manufacturers and little Aptera is the David. This is not exactly good for the innovation that Aptera has brought to the table. And I'm sure Tesla got the unibody idea for it's Model 2 from Aptera's design idea of limiting parts. In the long run this can't be good for the marketplace or consumer. This is the part where, unless Aptera is successful at lobbying hard for equity in the the tax & exemption & incentive benefits, the invisible hand of economics visibly turns into a fist and punches Aptera hard in the gut, and all over a technicality.
Another thing to consider is at $25k, Tesla has said that that's with FSD. That remains to be seen, but if true would be an enormous advantage.
I do strongly suspect that the $7k tax credit would disappear long before the Model 2 is produced. And I can only hope Aptera can successfully lobby to be included in that tax credit. Also I hope that Aptera could license the Tesla charging network and FSD tech, but I'm not sure how realistic that is.
Regardless, I think Aptera could survive as a niche hyper-efficient vehicle manufacturer for those who don't exactly care if the Aptera is the cheapest/most practical choice and instead just want one for the sake of its quirkiness, efficiency, minimalism, etc.. And I'm sure the Aptera will have some unique advantages even still that some people will have a need for (self-charging primarily).
Let's just imagine that there are no EV credits and that both Tesla Model 2 and Aptera were the same price, one would need to carefully pick and choose one's needs such as comfort, safety, servicing, load capacity, daily and long distant uses. I think the Tesla will be more dependent upon the DC fast charger support in your area. Tesla's Model 2 will be quite a shock to many other compact hatchback EVs. I've seen some renderings of the proposed hatchback and they look pretty good. I'll just keep all options open for now for a lot will happen in 2021
Exactly. I still suspect that the Model 2 won't compare to Aptera in power use and also right to repair, and for some percent of us that is going to be decisive.
Hi N.bruce. I agree. Nothing really comes close to the proposed efficiency unless you compare something like the Zero as far as sipping electrons. Nothing is comparable to the Aptera in concept. Our Tesla's and BMW's cars get about 1/3 of the cost compared to our gas vehicles when using home charging. As far as I can see from this forum, people have a lot of different needs from off-roading, to camping, to towing, from build-it-yourself. As far as safety, the body structure is one thing, but I am awaiting the internal safety devices such as the number of airbags and door steel reinforcements. If it were just seat belt bags, with just sheet carbon fiber, it may be a big no for me. I don't mind spending a little more on electricity if the safety issues were answered. I need to feel comfortable having my family in the car. I personally have seen the results of too many bad car accidents. Have you seen Rich Rebuilds? He works on his own Tesla's.
The Aptera safety design is considerably more than just sheet carbon fiber in the doors. The safety cage is built with carbon fiber and Kevlar, a layup that performs much better than steel, plus the door sill is high and the hip is further away from the door than with most standard designs. I predict you will be pleased when the crash test results re conducted and published.
Yes, that should make for a pretty rigid passenger cabin. But it's high riding design puts the passengers and batteries at about the height of an SUV bumper. (I am also interested in how the batteries will be shielded from the passengers in this shared cavity, but that's another subject). It will be worse when compared to some of the lifted trucks that are popular around here. The car safety cage is only one part of the equation. Deaccelerations forces are usually the lethal component of how the human body deals with accidents. Our internal organs such as the aorta, liver, and spleen internal rips from the supportive ligaments with high deacceleration from the momentum. We know from Einstein's theory of relativity and momentum that mass is a major factor of the energy equation. The shared energy of two colliding vehicles will be divided unfairly between a heavy and a light vehicle (think car vs two-wheeled motorcycle). The Aptera will have very low mass at 1800 pounds, so even if the vehicle body integrity is maintained, passengers inside will suffer if the momentum forces are not slowed by devices such as air bags. Seats belts in themselves do not do this and have injuries specific to them. So the whole system must be considered. I have plenty of experience in this at San Francisco General. But I am keeping an open mind for I would love to see the ingenuity of this company. They certainly are thinking outside the box.
I live in the bay area and have order #42 in the first batch of Paradigms. You will be most welcome to see it in person when I take delivery, if you don't have a chance to see one before then.
@n.bruce.nelson Thank you. That's very friendly of you. I now live in So. Cal now which is another reason the Aptera is attractive to me. Salt-water-air corrosion resistance. But I frequent the Bay Area so hopefully the pandemic will be better by the beginning of 2022.
@OceanDragon Lets hope so! I have gotten my first Pfizer shot (I am 71) but we will have to see what kind of protection we have against some of the variants as time goes on. I think we will be in a much better place, but perhaps not completely out of the woods. I would be very glad to stop by on the way back. I will announce this again when the time comes.
Yonju roku nen mai, san nen gri Nihon ni sunde imashita. Dakara skoshi hanashimas.
Interesting, were you in Gifu prefecture? Being born here (Sansei), my Japanese is a third language.