How much value does the 3d motor add?
Certainly it gets up to speed faster, but how often are you gong to use that?
Does it just eat up the charge faster.
In the snow is it like the difference from Fwd to Awd and/or 4wd
Does it make a big difference in acceleration, say 70-85
From what I see, it also does not add to the top end
Yep, that 3.5 secs to 60 sounds good, but 2.5k extra perhaps the FWD is the wiser option
Guess I'm looking for someone to convince me to do the upgrade.
Yeap, snow and primitive roads, which I have..., are the only reason I ordered it. I don’t see myself ever using the 0-60mph 3.5 sec use benefit
Whenever i owned a vehicle that did 0-60mph in less than 10seconds , high torque...I seemed change the tites more often
And back than I only had that acceleration to safely get onto some busy roads at peak hours
Less of those in retirement😉
Might come in handy in snow or off-road driving. Other than that, you may be correct in that it is unnecessary and just added complexity. Rear tire would seem to last longer in a free wheeling situation than it would under power. I imagine if you had an Aptera with the 250 mile battery, that it might be pretty light over the front wheels for decent traction in the snow. Some parts of the country get no snow but in Omaha, Nebraska the snow has been pretty abundant this year and front wheel vehicles get around pretty well because they have the gas engine weight over the driving wheels. Another thing is that the snow packs up pretty badly around the tires in the wheel wells and that would certainly bode unfavorably for those shrouds around the 3 wheels. That clearly would be a messed up situation for an Aptera and mark my words the shrouds would pack up with snow big time. Best to park an Aptera once snow flies or remove the shrouds until the streets are without snow. Can't imagine that those motorized hubs would take kindly to being encased in ice. Better to drive another car during snow time.
@Craig Alberhasky There are videos of the Elaphe motors being driven in snow and being tested encased in ice. And traction isn't all about weight - it's also about vehicle balance and center-of-gravity. So you might be expecting problems that won't exist...
I can only speak in generalities since I do not know how the car is actually going to be programmed or how sophisticated the controller will be. The tires and wheels are a cars only contact with the surface road or street. Under most conditions all four wheels are turning the same amount. When turning a standard ICE has differentials to distribute rotation along the radius of the turn. But this all changes when a tire loses traction with sand, water, gravel, or goes airbourn. Many modern cars now have traction control and ABS to assist the car in those situations. Unlike ICE, the wheels of the Aptera will also function in regenerative braking. All wheel drive is just a way for the car to get as much control of each wheel. Now also program into that torque vectoring which the Aptera hopefully has. Like the Rivian, and some EV Formula cars, the controller will be the electronic differential and spin an outer wheel at a faster rate depending upon the turn radius. Yes the third wheel can also be a factor in that and will be an intermediate radius when compared to the turn radius of each front wheel. A third wheel doesn't necessarily use significantly more power cruising down the road. The power is just split three ways instead of two. During regeneration, one will have three generators instead of two. This is all a generality and we will have to see the detailed specs on the car when it is produced. I myself am favoring the all wheel drive system. Ride comfort will be sacrificed though so those going on long touring trips may not like it.
@OceanDragon I was going to "heart" you - right up until the "ride comfort" assertion: Why do you think having a third motor will have a negative effect on ride comfort?
Probably because hub motors add unsprung weight. That weight is low for the center of gravity, but it is less friendly to suspension. More momentum from impacts and slower rebound. Having said that, I'm still a proud owner of a diy hubmotor ebike (24kW). I consider unsprung weight the only disadvantage... the direct drive is great for features like torque vectoring, without any drivetrain coupling they're lower maintenance/more reliable, and more efficient. Simpler, in the good way. Personally I'd get AWD for snow.
Craig should check out some of the hub motor torture-tests. I think I saw it frozen in a solid block of ice. I definitely saw it fully submerged in SALT water, which would come in handy every time there's a hurricane & you wait to evacuate because Aptera is fine in 110mph winds.
Aptera says:
- Wheel covers snap off very easily (could leave at home in snow).
- AWD only takes "a few %" off the range.
- A full 70% of weight is on the front wheels.
That's actually MORE than the average FWD car that does so well in snow. HOWEVER, unlike a 4-wheeler, it should provide very neutral cornering, with nearly equal weight on each of the 3 tires:
Aptera's front 35% on each tire, rear 30%.
4-wheel FWD 30% on each front, rear 20% on each.
I would love to see a projection of how the third motor might affect regen and overall control. Is a reduction in ride comfort a necessary bi-product of the 3WD option? If so, how significant a change in ride comfort is this likely to be?
Hi Ken. The ride comfort is just an outcome of suspension design. The third electric motor will add to the "un-sprung weight" of the rear suspension arm. In basic suspension design and manufacturing, one always tries to get the un-sprung weight as low as possible. That is why alloy wheels and ceramic brake discs are added to higher performance cars. The lighter weight allows the suspension to react to road bumps better. Handling is improved and ride characteristics are improved. A separate but also important issue is that the car will react better to acceleration and stopping since the rotational inertia is less. There is a whole science based on physics on suspension design or modification. You will note while watching videos of the Aptera going down the street that it is quite "bouncy". That is because of the high un-sprung weight of the motors compared to the light weight of the cars. I am not envisioning that this will be a good long range cruiser, but a great local distance EV. Many people are getting the car for the price as well as the "awh factor". But then again, comfort is subjective. Many people really don't appreciate the ride of a subcompact car until they ride in a heavier sedan. Any ride over a few hundred miles on a 2 wheel motorcycle is fatiguing to me whether it be a cruiser or street bike.
@OceanDragon Something tells me that "common knowledge" isn't going to apply in this situation - the laws of suspension design are not fixed and immutable. A stock steel rim runs about 20 lbs - the Elaphe motors are 50 lbs. That's not a terribly significant difference especially when you remember that the entire vehicle weighs less than 1800 lbs. and has fully independent suspension - and that the front and rear subframes are mated to the body with shock-absorbing elastomer mounts. The first prototype shown in the video is a front-wheel drive vehicle - perhaps an extra 50 lbs in the rear will keep it better planted.
@Kerbe #12705 Hi Kerbe. I was wondering how to explain the your first comment, but you helped me with your second. You hit the answer right on the nose. The answer lies in the weight distribution. Let me try and explain on more of an elementary view since not all members are engineers. Consider a car which was considered a nice riding vehicle....one that you could comfortably ride cross-country in. I would say that a mid 80's Cadillac or Lincoln would be good examples. Now take a view at what cars would be the most uncomfortable and squirrely on the road. It would be a MB Smart Car or Fiat 500. Now how do these cars differ? They both get from A to B. The heavy mid 80's cars share their massive weight, add to that soft suspension, and low un-sprung weight. The un-sprung weight always has to be proportional to the sprung weight (the weight of the car. Sprung weight is the weight the springs are supporting. The Un-sprung weight is the whatever weight the spring suspension is not supporting. Un-sprung weight usually refers to the axles, tie bars, and rods, spindles, hub and brakes. It includes anything mounted to these items such as rims and tires. The Aptera adds 50 lbs to the mass of the un-sprung suspension, but worse of all it is at the end of a long A-arm in the front and long single trailing arm in the rear. Back to my example. The Cadillac is a large mass. It is hard to deflect once in motion because of its inertia and momentum. If it hit a large man, it would just keep going. Tie to this relatively light unsprung weight of short A-arms and relatively narrow rims and tires of the time. If it ran over a 2 x 4" lumber on the road, the light weight suspension will just compress, because the heavy car holds it down at the pivot joint (A-arm bushings). Now in comparison take a lightweight car such as the Mercedes Benz Smart Car. It only weighs 1,500 lbs, but its gas motor and frame is substantially heavier than the lightweight wheels and tires and MacPherson strut design, but the ride is certainly not comfortable at highway speeds. Now let's look at the Aptera which is in a class of it's own. It is a very light car for its size under 1,800 (by law). Add to this the mass of weight which would normally be in the chassis as a motor, and place that weight at the end of long stalks. If one hits that same 2 x 4" lumber, the Un-sprung mass would be catapulted (exaggeration) upward, but one does not have the same body weight to hold it down. A soft spring and shock will only dampen part of that upward travel. It translates into partial upward rebound of the sprung weight at that part of the car. The additional factor is the unbalance weight distribution of the Aptera which is approximately 70:30. The single rear wheel of the car has less weight upon it as sprung weight. Add to that the extra 39 or 50 lbs (depending upon whether the S400 or M700 motor is used) will certainly have its effect. That extra mass will certainly cause rebound reaction to bounce up the rear of the car. So someone commented that this could be overcome with using lighter spring compression rates and softer shock. Yes, that would partially remedy the issue, but will drastically reduce the load capacity of the vehicle and will promote bottoming out. The Aptera lacks a basic modern suspension part, the anti-roll bar. This would help the ride, but not cornering. There are many written articles and YouTube videos on suspension design. It is based on pure physics under motion. It is a fun and interesting aspect of science. I know this is long winded, but it is a simplification of a very complicated topic. It holds true whether we are talking motorcycles, cars, or plane landing gear. If you are interested in learning more, may I suggest a good primer such as this book by the SAE (society of automotive engineers), https://www.sae.org/publications/books/content/r-318/
Hope this helps.
It will be interesting to find out how well the hub motors tolerate salt, sand, mud, dust and the like.
If you go the Elaphe’s webiste they have videos of the wheel motors in many different enviroments
@Craig Alberhasky probably should check out those Elaphe vids that seem to refute his somewhat-negative comments above.
@OceanDragon is 100% correct. However proper shock-absorber tuning should eliminate the "bouncy" ride, most US highways are pretty smooth, AND the road-trip model's heavier battery also gives a smoother ride.
There's a fairly new relevant point, from the vid linked below: NO BRAKES ARE NEEDED!!! This reduces total vehicle mass*, rotational inertia, AND un-sprung weight, and also reduces cost & complexity.
*Delete all brake rotors, calipers, hoses, lines, master cylinder/reservoir(s)/fluid, & pump (not sure if all BEVs have that, but mine does).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ5sU2r-xxw
$2.5K to shave TWO SECONDS off zero-to-sixty and faster than many expensive, modified ICE "performance" cars? You had me at "A" in "AWD." Can't wait to be pinned to the seats.
Agreed.
I also like the affordability of RWD at $2.5k LESS & maybe 2 seconds longer 0-60 like a Corolla.
Also, no matter what, front tires already take about 80% of the braking load, & about 70% of the cornering. Instead of also adding 100% of the acceleration load, there is some logic behind putting that on the RWD tire.
HOWEVER, after they delete the now-redundant friction brakes, RWD would require the addition of front brake discs, calipers, hoses, lines, master cylinder, etc. So after they delete brakes, AWD might be the only option that makes $ense.
AWD... but its only 3 instead of four. So.... ill check the vid. I suspect that its being in the center as opposed to behind the front wheels should have some value. Thoughts?
Ya know. I want a good YouTube review. Preferably a 3d party so no one claims bias. Sandy?
It has been out there
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?view=detail&mid=083B70945416CDB5FB94083B70945416CDB5FB94&q=sandy+munro+f+150+aptera&shtp=GetUrl&shid=d968dafc-1427-4faf-9d66-ee55aeddf2de&shtk=QXB0ZXJhOiBNb3JlIEFlcm9keW5hbWljIFRoYW4gRi0xNTAgTWlycm9yIT8%3D&shdk=VmlzaXQgQXB0ZXJhJ3MgV2Vic2l0ZSBIZXJlISAtIGh0dHA6Ly9iaXQubHkvYXB0ZXJhbXVucm8gSW4gdGhpcyB2aWRlbyBTYW5keSBpbnRlcnZpZXdzIENocmlzIEFudGhvbnkgYW5kIFN0ZXZlIEZhbWJybywgdGhlIENvLUNFTydzIG9mIEFwdGVyYSBNb3RvcnMsIHdobyBoYXZlIGp1c3QgcmVjZW50bHkgaW50cm9kdWNlZCB0aGVpciB1cGNvbWluZyBzb2xhciBlbGVjdHJpYyB2ZWhpY2xlLiBNdW5ybyAmIEFzc29jaWF0ZXMgaGFzIGJlZW4gd29ya2luZyB3aXRoIEFwdGVyYSBmb3Igc29tZSB0aW1lIG5vdyBhbmQgdGhpcyB2aWRlbyBpcyBwYWNrZWQgd2l0aCBwbGVudHkgb2YgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gLi4u&shhk=K8W2opusY%2FvDoBE06YNEtrK5spgtv9FBSU%2FRtq0fd5I%3D&form=VDSHOT&shth=OSH.iaxRrxRBiFc%252B7%252FyZqUAMTA
@Len I've already watched this video.
I was thinking more of a review done by "Alex on Autos". He is the first one I found, so no plug intent. Get Lenno again!
Go over the design
sit in it, comfy,
db level on the drive
take it for a drive (and some in the snow), off road, handling, mpg , etc.
tell the things they like and dont like.. such as wipers dont work well or too much road noise
I dont live on the west coast. The more information I can get, the better. Especially if you cant take one for a test drive. How much was not exactly right on those first Teslas!
I'll go for the AWD version with the off road package and all terrain tyres as roads in UK can be so bad that you would often need it! It would also probably be better up steep hills and pulling away at junctions with the AWD.
I only rememver the famous Swindon Roundabout and speed and agility can save your life there!
Cheers!
In their Youtube interviews, the developers have mentioned several times that All Wheel Drive will allow them to use computer driven, complex handling algorithms that will help in ride, handling, stability, speed, balance, anti-roll, etc..