Just reading and watching info on the fabulous Gordon Murray T50. Noticed this streamlined super car has the ‘ticket windows’ in the side glass just like those planned for the Aptera.
I consider this to be an unfortunate design flaw in the Aptera. That mid-window brace between the two sections of each side window (static window section above, retractable below) will definitely be a visual field of view blocker. It will be annoying to watch the scenery or look to the side at anything, having to bob your head up and down to look over or under this blocker that is right at or near eye level. It is unfortunate that the team was not able to eliminate this usability (and potential safety) design flaw.
Aptera's marketing video shows the visual blockage clearly, and of course the driver's eyes are much closer to it (i.e., larger field of view blocker) than the perspective from this camera position:
That would be my solution: The black guide rail is removed. The side window is made from one piece of plastic. The guide of the side window leads diagonally downwards. The sliding could also be pulled downwards by hand via a bracket at the top of the window. The window is slightly curved so it can be pushed further into the door.
There may be some other considerations we are not aware of. However, your idea is going in a far better direction and could be tweaked a bit if needed. I would gladly have that extra "hump" of glass sticking up a bit as compared to always having a perpetual, non-movable, significant visual blockage across both side windows, plus your design actually has more open air window space. Only downside I see is not being able to rest an arm on the bottom edge of the window frame, though that is a minor trade-off that pales in comparison to the far better visibility benefit it achieves.
You do understand why the window is designed as such? If you look at the height of the door, there is not enough room for the whole window to retract into it. So a shorter secondary portion of the window was then designed to be retractable. This is the same design as the Subaru SVX. I think I prefer this to the design of the non-production Ford GT-40 which was just a square pop-open window. I do think the width of the sealing strip can be made narrower. My Mercedes S coupe has a glass to glass seal which is about 1/2 inch wide on the vertical union between the front and rear glass....no B pillar.
@OceanDragonYes, I understand why it was designed this way. 😊 That does not change the end result and does not change my comments, though. This window design was a trade-off decision that resulted in a design flaw regarding field of view and visibility. The exterior shell shape understandably took precedence over driver and passenger visibility because of the larger priority on aerodynamics and efficiency. Nonetheless, it will still be an unfortunate impact on the driving experience. I expect that many people will notice it as an undesirable trait of the Aptera when they drive in it, and it will require "just getting used to it". I love the Aptera in general and have sung many praises, but not this aspect for the reasons discussed. As I have said elsewhere, I expect this will be mentioned as a negative in car magazine reviews, etc. when the general public starts to get access to driving it. I bet it will be annoying enough that it will be a higher priority design consideration in (hopefully) future different Aptera models that have different exterior shell configurations.
Yeah “I think” but will not know until I can get a ride in it.
Outside of the blind spot at a T intersection ( depending the driver’r eye height) it should not be a showstopper
I typically look straight ahead most of the time
Having the side view video displays should be good, once I am use to them
If I can see the top of the wheel cover(s) that will be great with 🤞 proximity sensors
Hey Refundable deposit and a seven day/1000 mi return Right?!
Once they get the ither Dev vehiclesvonbthebground and interviews from the outside ....lits will be clarified.
When I got my 2009 ride in the 2e it was a full side door window but assume the curved body changed???? I can’t recall if it retracted??? But the old production solpecs seemed to indicate they would
@Len, as I know you would agree, fortunately the Aptera has many other terrific attributes and I am excited about it. Thanks for sharing that 2009 pic; interesting. This is just proof that no car is perfect, including the Aptera. I can foresee this side visibility / field of view blockage coming as an issue for folks. It is unfortunate that the designers cannot better solve this now instead of perhaps doing something later after receiving predictable post-production negative feedback about it. Perhaps it is not feasible for them to provide a good retractable window solution given the exterior shell shape and space available. Nonetheless, this sounds like an area to try a little harder. It would be a great design challenge to get some cutting edge designers tasked with solving it well now instead of perhaps later after the initial production runs. 😊
Shining up the crystal ball, I would not be at all surprised if one of the ways to tell an early Aptera from a later Aptera at a distance will be whether or not it has the side window view blockers, with the later versions perhaps solving a known problem that existed in the initial version. We'll "see". 😉
Good points being brought up. Although I had mentioned window height being a reason for the new window design, it was also brought up that curvature could have been a reason as well. That was why the Ford GT-40 had to be reshaped for the production car. The early cars did not have the door shape to accept a roll-down window. Plus they did not want to add the extra weight of the roll down mechanism. I have a gut feeling that this problem has a solution. There is room for improvement as well as getting used to having the window frame in that place. There are vans that have a much wider A pillar. As long as the horizontal section is above my sight line of the horizon, I really wouldn't complain of it being there. My Bertone Coupe 262C has a pretty low roof/window line and one gets used to it.
@OceanDragon And if they could not go with the better solution that Ioswa has proposed, then I would actually prefer that the movable window be made SMALLER so that the visual blocker is low and only blocks downward view more toward the side road surface (and not out to the rest of the world). Understood that some others may have a different opinion, but just sharing mine. In comparison to the current placement that they have for that semi-horizontal band of window structure, I would be OK with them implementing such a smaller retractable window that would be big enough to reach through and pay at a tollbooth, get some ventilation, and perhaps rest an arm (with the arm rest ability being lowest priority). Main thing would be moving that big visual blocker band down and out of the way. The current location is literally just about the worst possible place that could be chosen for blocking side field of view with that width of a structural band.
@Scott From the few videos that demonstrate actual driving, it appears that the visual line of sight of the horizon is below the roll-down window frame. It would also depend upon one's seat positioning to get the best visual perspective. I for one am not too worried for the solution already exists, it just needs to be incorporated. The current 2 inch upper frame is just not acceptable.
Doesn't the Prius have a similar visibility problem out the back view? It has a bar that goes right through the field of view. There's a small view below it and a larger view above it. It doesn't seem to stop anyone from buying them.
Also, even though it was a long time ago, I seem to remember a lot of discussion on the 2009 version about whether the windows would open at all. The one at the top of this thread is probably one of the fixed versions. Anyone else remember a discussion about this?
@dtmattijetz Yes, the Prius has a bar across its back window. However, that is a whole different ballgame than blocking the side view plus having the "bar" be a foot away from your eyes. I am not concerned about the rear view, since I believe most drivers are not enjoying the outside view of the world or looking for safety items in their already-gone-by rear view anywhere near as much as they are in the side view (and front view, of course). Many people here are even placing a reservation for the full solar package, which will obliterate 100% of the direct unaided rear view and be completely reliant upon a camera-based rear view "mirror". In comparison, the side view blockage is not addressed in any significant way by the rear view side "mirrors" (cameras on interior displays), since they will be an artificial (indirect) view facing at a backwards angle analogous to regular car rear view mirrors. These side view window "bars", as currently designed, will significantly block the side view of the world.
Just for me personally, if it came down to a choice between having this poorly implemented field of view blocker or having retractable windows, I would actually go so far as to choose to have solid / non-retractable windows. Having non-retractable windows would be annoying occasionally, while the view blockers will likely be more frequently and consistently annoying plus a potential safety issue in some scenarios. Non-retractable windows would likely make the ride even quieter than it already is anticipated to be due to more solid window edge seals, improve aerodynamics a bit more, and reduce weight/complexity a bit. My overall preference is certainly to have a retractable window design that better accounts for driver and passenger field of view, but for me a non-retractable window would be a second choice in front of the current "distant third" design choice if they are otherwise unable to address this issue well.
Those are all pictures of rear view blockers, not side view blockers. Per my inputs above, side view blockers is a much more significant issue than a rear view blocker (especially in the Aptera, where the unaided rear view blockage will be 100% with the full solar panels option and this will be addressed through indirect cameras/display for those people who want this option).
@Scott You are right, the pictures referred to the example with the Prius. Bad side windows there are less. As I mentioned before, a sliding window solution would still come into consideration, which would also be operable by hand sh. Morgan etc.
@loswa Thank you. I recommend solution #4: They should hire/consult with you!😁 Most of the rest of the Aptera design “thinks outside the box” in a positive way, though they have unfortunately limited themselves to a problematic design so far on this specific issue and perhaps could use some external solution-oriented thinking about it.
Now that I've googled it, I only see top-hinge on the windshield. Maybe it was another vehicle I'm remembering where side windows had top hinges. Hopefully someone else remembers it.
@kiteboarder and @Len, Agreed, though popping it out would adversely affect the aerodynamics a bit. However, it would be an optional pop-out at optional times. The single vertical bar would certainly be much less of a visual obstruction than the current official long horizontal approach that spans a far wider range across the lateral world's field of view.
Nonetheless, I believe that @loswa solution idea #1 (with the full window that only goes down part of the way) is the best all around solution so far: it offers an unimpeded side view for better driving/field of view experience and safety, yet still provides lots of open air for ventilation or paying at a tollbooth or getting a hamburger at a drive thru. And it presumably would actually provide the same or even better aerodynamics than the current official proposed Aptera design since this alternate approach has no raised structure/bar, therefore no breaks in air flow, and therefore no added turbulence across the single continuous curved glass window. Any additional turbulence caused by having the window embed itself in a catch U-profile lip higher on the door frame could be offset by these other benefits. And the entire field of view blockage issue is then fully addressed since there is no long visual blocker anymore.
I believe the window should go part-way down from the top just like every other car where the back passenger door's wheel cutout won't allow full opening.
Aptera did say that a fixed upper window was more aerodynamic, even with the vision-blocker added. I realize they were going for the absolute maximum efficiency in most areas, but overall it is SO efficient that it can easily afford to compromise a teeny tiny bit to improve appearance, convenience, etc, & thereby also acceptance.
Anyone really needing minimum drag for more range has the option of a bigger battery, with the ONLY exception being if you need 1,000 miles. So they could delete the vision-blocker, & compensate for the added drag with something like slightly narrower tires on the 1,000-mile model.
@kiteboarder Agreed and well said. I believe that, in this case, they are letting their engineering-optimization minds overpower their usability and appeal/driving experience minds. They already have achieved so many incredible technical goals with the Aptera design. If they want this company to be more than yet another entry in the history books of flash in the pan / early adopter car companies (and there are MANY), they need to address things like this. Just waving it away as if this unfortunate design detail is pre-destined to be an absolute necessity is short sighted, in my opinion. They will soon run out of the techno / eco / early adopter folks like us who might be more forgiving of design flaws that the rest of the car & driver universe does not consider to be acceptable. Making it a 2 seater already significantly reduces their potential market. They need to remove as many other barriers as are under their reasonable control, especially in this world where well funded EV competitors are rising fast and some people can make car buying decisions based on whether or not a car has a good enough cup holder. 😉
And the same problem at the fast food drive thru like Aptera ...🙄
I consider this to be an unfortunate design flaw in the Aptera. That mid-window brace between the two sections of each side window (static window section above, retractable below) will definitely be a visual field of view blocker. It will be annoying to watch the scenery or look to the side at anything, having to bob your head up and down to look over or under this blocker that is right at or near eye level. It is unfortunate that the team was not able to eliminate this usability (and potential safety) design flaw.
Aptera's marketing video shows the visual blockage clearly, and of course the driver's eyes are much closer to it (i.e., larger field of view blocker) than the perspective from this camera position:
That would be my solution: The black guide rail is removed. The side window is made from one piece of plastic. The guide of the side window leads diagonally downwards. The sliding could also be pulled downwards by hand via a bracket at the top of the window. The window is slightly curved so it can be pushed further into the door.
@loswa please apply for a job at Aptera. 😀
There may be some other considerations we are not aware of. However, your idea is going in a far better direction and could be tweaked a bit if needed. I would gladly have that extra "hump" of glass sticking up a bit as compared to always having a perpetual, non-movable, significant visual blockage across both side windows, plus your design actually has more open air window space. Only downside I see is not being able to rest an arm on the bottom edge of the window frame, though that is a minor trade-off that pales in comparison to the far better visibility benefit it achieves.
I hope that Aptera is paying attention.
@Scott This is the end position of the side window:
You do understand why the window is designed as such? If you look at the height of the door, there is not enough room for the whole window to retract into it. So a shorter secondary portion of the window was then designed to be retractable. This is the same design as the Subaru SVX. I think I prefer this to the design of the non-production Ford GT-40 which was just a square pop-open window. I do think the width of the sealing strip can be made narrower. My Mercedes S coupe has a glass to glass seal which is about 1/2 inch wide on the vertical union between the front and rear glass....no B pillar.
@OceanDragonYes, I understand why it was designed this way. 😊 That does not change the end result and does not change my comments, though. This window design was a trade-off decision that resulted in a design flaw regarding field of view and visibility. The exterior shell shape understandably took precedence over driver and passenger visibility because of the larger priority on aerodynamics and efficiency. Nonetheless, it will still be an unfortunate impact on the driving experience. I expect that many people will notice it as an undesirable trait of the Aptera when they drive in it, and it will require "just getting used to it". I love the Aptera in general and have sung many praises, but not this aspect for the reasons discussed. As I have said elsewhere, I expect this will be mentioned as a negative in car magazine reviews, etc. when the general public starts to get access to driving it. I bet it will be annoying enough that it will be a higher priority design consideration in (hopefully) future different Aptera models that have different exterior shell configurations.
Yeah “I think” but will not know until I can get a ride in it.
Outside of the blind spot at a T intersection ( depending the driver’r eye height) it should not be a showstopper
I typically look straight ahead most of the time
Having the side view video displays should be good, once I am use to them
If I can see the top of the wheel cover(s) that will be great with 🤞 proximity sensors
Hey Refundable deposit and a seven day/1000 mi return Right?!
Once they get the ither Dev vehiclesvonbthebground and interviews from the outside ....lits will be clarified.
When I got my 2009 ride in the 2e it was a full side door window but assume the curved body changed???? I can’t recall if it retracted??? But the old production solpecs seemed to indicate they would
@Len, as I know you would agree, fortunately the Aptera has many other terrific attributes and I am excited about it. Thanks for sharing that 2009 pic; interesting. This is just proof that no car is perfect, including the Aptera. I can foresee this side visibility / field of view blockage coming as an issue for folks. It is unfortunate that the designers cannot better solve this now instead of perhaps doing something later after receiving predictable post-production negative feedback about it. Perhaps it is not feasible for them to provide a good retractable window solution given the exterior shell shape and space available. Nonetheless, this sounds like an area to try a little harder. It would be a great design challenge to get some cutting edge designers tasked with solving it well now instead of perhaps later after the initial production runs. 😊
Shining up the crystal ball, I would not be at all surprised if one of the ways to tell an early Aptera from a later Aptera at a distance will be whether or not it has the side window view blockers, with the later versions perhaps solving a known problem that existed in the initial version. We'll "see". 😉
Good points being brought up. Although I had mentioned window height being a reason for the new window design, it was also brought up that curvature could have been a reason as well. That was why the Ford GT-40 had to be reshaped for the production car. The early cars did not have the door shape to accept a roll-down window. Plus they did not want to add the extra weight of the roll down mechanism. I have a gut feeling that this problem has a solution. There is room for improvement as well as getting used to having the window frame in that place. There are vans that have a much wider A pillar. As long as the horizontal section is above my sight line of the horizon, I really wouldn't complain of it being there. My Bertone Coupe 262C has a pretty low roof/window line and one gets used to it.
@OceanDragon And if they could not go with the better solution that Ioswa has proposed, then I would actually prefer that the movable window be made SMALLER so that the visual blocker is low and only blocks downward view more toward the side road surface (and not out to the rest of the world). Understood that some others may have a different opinion, but just sharing mine. In comparison to the current placement that they have for that semi-horizontal band of window structure, I would be OK with them implementing such a smaller retractable window that would be big enough to reach through and pay at a tollbooth, get some ventilation, and perhaps rest an arm (with the arm rest ability being lowest priority). Main thing would be moving that big visual blocker band down and out of the way. The current location is literally just about the worst possible place that could be chosen for blocking side field of view with that width of a structural band.
@Scott From the few videos that demonstrate actual driving, it appears that the visual line of sight of the horizon is below the roll-down window frame. It would also depend upon one's seat positioning to get the best visual perspective. I for one am not too worried for the solution already exists, it just needs to be incorporated. The current 2 inch upper frame is just not acceptable.
https://www.bing.com/fd/ls/GLinkPing.aspx?IG=BB5826FBE5424B9990514C22E85E4DF1&&ID=SERP,5124.1&SUIH=XzA-o36Bul2_YnCoRDbUHA&redir=aHR0cHM6Ly9tYXNoYWJsZS5jb20vYXJ0aWNsZS9ibGluZC1zcG90LWludmVudGlvbi10ZWVuLWdpcmwtYnJvYWRjb20v
@Len nice pictures.
If we don't get an Aptera, we will take vacation in Aptera.
Aptera an archaeological site in West Crete above the bay of Souda.
Whatever makes you smile.
When the pandemic fades... I will!
Doesn't the Prius have a similar visibility problem out the back view? It has a bar that goes right through the field of view. There's a small view below it and a larger view above it. It doesn't seem to stop anyone from buying them.
Also, even though it was a long time ago, I seem to remember a lot of discussion on the 2009 version about whether the windows would open at all. The one at the top of this thread is probably one of the fixed versions. Anyone else remember a discussion about this?
@dtmattijetz Yes, the Prius has a bar across its back window. However, that is a whole different ballgame than blocking the side view plus having the "bar" be a foot away from your eyes. I am not concerned about the rear view, since I believe most drivers are not enjoying the outside view of the world or looking for safety items in their already-gone-by rear view anywhere near as much as they are in the side view (and front view, of course). Many people here are even placing a reservation for the full solar package, which will obliterate 100% of the direct unaided rear view and be completely reliant upon a camera-based rear view "mirror". In comparison, the side view blockage is not addressed in any significant way by the rear view side "mirrors" (cameras on interior displays), since they will be an artificial (indirect) view facing at a backwards angle analogous to regular car rear view mirrors. These side view window "bars", as currently designed, will significantly block the side view of the world.
Just for me personally, if it came down to a choice between having this poorly implemented field of view blocker or having retractable windows, I would actually go so far as to choose to have solid / non-retractable windows. Having non-retractable windows would be annoying occasionally, while the view blockers will likely be more frequently and consistently annoying plus a potential safety issue in some scenarios. Non-retractable windows would likely make the ride even quieter than it already is anticipated to be due to more solid window edge seals, improve aerodynamics a bit more, and reduce weight/complexity a bit. My overall preference is certainly to have a retractable window design that better accounts for driver and passenger field of view, but for me a non-retractable window would be a second choice in front of the current "distant third" design choice if they are otherwise unable to address this issue well.
Those are all pictures of rear view blockers, not side view blockers. Per my inputs above, side view blockers is a much more significant issue than a rear view blocker (especially in the Aptera, where the unaided rear view blockage will be 100% with the full solar panels option and this will be addressed through indirect cameras/display for those people who want this option).
@Scott You are right, the pictures referred to the example with the Prius. Bad side windows there are less. As I mentioned before, a sliding window solution would still come into consideration, which would also be operable by hand sh. Morgan etc.
Twike has the same problem, but has solved it a little better.
@Scott
Another solution would be a half retractable window (#3).
Now you can choose the right solution and forward it to Chris and Steve 😁
@loswa Thank you. I recommend solution #4: They should hire/consult with you!😁 Most of the rest of the Aptera design “thinks outside the box” in a positive way, though they have unfortunately limited themselves to a problematic design so far on this specific issue and perhaps could use some external solution-oriented thinking about it.
I am not sure a vertical channel for the split window resolves the potential of a blind spot nor be as aerodynamic but... it is another design!
What I will do is place at my eye level in the same shape, on one of my vehicles to see “if” this “ change” is a big deal “ for me “
(Several different things on an unusal vehicle that has many folks interested)
@Len Take a cardboard box, simulate the variants and please let us know the result - youth research.
It doesn’t bother me ... using the same size “mock up” of my vehicle’s split window channel
And i positioned directly at my rye level. Drove for three hours on the Interstate and in towns today no issues
It gves you the feeling of being within a aircraft canopy!
I would suggest those who are still hunh up on this ... to the same assessment. You could even fouble the channel width
@Len Thanks for the test, but the proportions would still have to be adjusted a little. Can you do another test drive?
I got a good idea from what I did
What pictures don’t capture is actually what our two eyes working looking around the nearly horizontal line !
Try it yourself
Hopefully “ you will see”😉
As I suggested... you can double the width if like
Move the windiw up and down as it gives other level views too
I wonder about a VW-bus-like top edge hinge.
Now that I've googled it, I only see top-hinge on the windshield. Maybe it was another vehicle I'm remembering where side windows had top hinges. Hopefully someone else remembers it.
I grew up around
Wing windows
None were curved
It doesn't seem to me that curvature would automatically disqualify the concept.
@kiteboarder and @Len, Agreed, though popping it out would adversely affect the aerodynamics a bit. However, it would be an optional pop-out at optional times. The single vertical bar would certainly be much less of a visual obstruction than the current official long horizontal approach that spans a far wider range across the lateral world's field of view.
Nonetheless, I believe that @loswa solution idea #1 (with the full window that only goes down part of the way) is the best all around solution so far: it offers an unimpeded side view for better driving/field of view experience and safety, yet still provides lots of open air for ventilation or paying at a tollbooth or getting a hamburger at a drive thru. And it presumably would actually provide the same or even better aerodynamics than the current official proposed Aptera design since this alternate approach has no raised structure/bar, therefore no breaks in air flow, and therefore no added turbulence across the single continuous curved glass window. Any additional turbulence caused by having the window embed itself in a catch U-profile lip higher on the door frame could be offset by these other benefits. And the entire field of view blockage issue is then fully addressed since there is no long visual blocker anymore.
@loswa can you please provide some context on your posted image? Did you create this, or is it from somewhere else?
I believe the window should go part-way down from the top just like every other car where the back passenger door's wheel cutout won't allow full opening.
Aptera did say that a fixed upper window was more aerodynamic, even with the vision-blocker added. I realize they were going for the absolute maximum efficiency in most areas, but overall it is SO efficient that it can easily afford to compromise a teeny tiny bit to improve appearance, convenience, etc, & thereby also acceptance.
Anyone really needing minimum drag for more range has the option of a bigger battery, with the ONLY exception being if you need 1,000 miles. So they could delete the vision-blocker, & compensate for the added drag with something like slightly narrower tires on the 1,000-mile model.
@kiteboarder Agreed and well said. I believe that, in this case, they are letting their engineering-optimization minds overpower their usability and appeal/driving experience minds. They already have achieved so many incredible technical goals with the Aptera design. If they want this company to be more than yet another entry in the history books of flash in the pan / early adopter car companies (and there are MANY), they need to address things like this. Just waving it away as if this unfortunate design detail is pre-destined to be an absolute necessity is short sighted, in my opinion. They will soon run out of the techno / eco / early adopter folks like us who might be more forgiving of design flaws that the rest of the car & driver universe does not consider to be acceptable. Making it a 2 seater already significantly reduces their potential market. They need to remove as many other barriers as are under their reasonable control, especially in this world where well funded EV competitors are rising fast and some people can make car buying decisions based on whether or not a car has a good enough cup holder. 😉