The selling points for me:
Continuous range (some of us aren't millionaires with 30 more hours to add to an already long trip. If I am driving 12 hours to a destination, solar isn't going to cut it on a 700 mile trip)
Tires. Where's the spare? How much are tires? How do you intend to change them?
Price. Can you keep it comparable to a 2020 Prius in price AND outrange a prius with better gas mileage? If not, you are wasting my time.
The Prius is an attempt to forestall the BEV. It's an ICE with E assist. Toyota has lobbied against the BEV more than anyone. They just announced their turnaround plan, a BEV in 5 years. Too little, too late for me. I won't forget their obstruction. I will reward Aptera for their innovation.
BEV systems are still using very dirty to manufacture and dangerous metals. Keep in mind that the prius has been here for far longer than Tesla, and is more affordable to a wider market. If anything, the prius demonstrates a long range approach to fuel economy. Do you even know where your "innovative" power comes from? How it's generated? Or are you one of those people that just thinks somehow solar (which also uses very dangerous to produce materials) is magically going to save you when you can't make ends meet?
Today batteries are evolving in insane speed. And batteries without cobolt and nickel can be made today. Lithium is found in many places, it can be mined from USA, it can be mined from Finland and of course it is mined from south america. A123 invented years ago LiFePo batteries and today those batteries are used in Tesla Model 3 made in China. If I understood right, those batteries have longer calendar life and also more charge and discharge cycles than NMC batteries. They are less energy dense, but they are safer. There are trade offs, but there are different possibilities. Batteries greatest consumers are environmentally thinking individuals and we as consumers want to go towards smaller environmental foot print, step by step. We are finding less harmfull solutions everyday, and I like what I see here. Greetings from Finland!
Doesn't the Aptera use in-wheel (hub) motors? That would make it impossible to easily remove the wheel and install a spare. Hopefully it has some type of run-flat tires?
Runflats are incredibly expensive and heavy. Even more expensive when they need replaced.
I doubt very much the motor is an integral part of the wheel.
Replying to Ken's points: The hub motor no more gets in the way of changing the tires than your brakes do in your car today. The standard Aptera motor package will be on typical 16" rims with a 195/45/r16 tire.
Here's an image of the hub motor I got off Aptera's Facebook group:
Note the bolts that will allow you to mount the rims and tire. The bottom half of the front tire covers pop off so you can change the tires like on an ordinary car.
Replying to yournot's questions:
1) How far do you drive in a day without stopping? The longest range Aptera can go 1000 miles (EPA test cycle) between charges, and can charge at a rate of up to 500 miles per hour. So you can do your 700 mile trip without stopping to charge at all if you want. I know I'd need to recharge (and discharge) myself a few times during that trip, even if the car won't need to. If I stopped at a rest stop with a charging station, I could add 250 miles in half an hour, enough for another 4 or so more hours of highway driving.
So do you really need a gas engine, muffler, fuel tank, oil changes, etc.? I don't think so. However if you really can't live without a fuel burning car, the new Aptera is not for you.
2) Many cars today don't come with spare tires. You could always buy an extra tire & rim and lug it around. My current car, a Chevy Volt, doesn't have one. It does come with a pump and goop to plug a leak, although I've never used the goop (now out of date) in the almost seven years I've owned the car. I've been meaning to buy a simple patch kit. I've got AAA, but I've never had to call them. I've had a few slow leaks over the years from running over screws and other metal in the road, but nothing a patch kit couldn't fix. Each of those times I could always pump up the soft tire & drive to a gas station to get that patched before it ran flat.
3) The upfront price may be a higher than a Prius Prime (I'm not sure what they're going for today after rebates.) However the Aptera gets infinite miles per gallon of gas. (1000 / 0 = infinity!) So the lifetime cost, including gas, electricity, oil changes, and other engine maintenance, will be lower for the Aptera than for any fuel burner driven a normal number of miles.
Don't waste your time with haters. It's not mandatory to buy an EV and he doesn't seem interested.😉
Let's start with the tire. That sounds fine for some people, but a spare is needed. Too many times have I seen people stuck.
Now, you might be in the one or two places where you can find an electric charger on every corner, but out here in the rest of the USA there's maybe 200-300 gas stations between each charging station that if you were lucky enough you might not have to wait in line for. Imagine getting there and 4 other vehicles are waiting in line to charge. There goes a few hours where you do what? While here I am buzzing by with a 5-10 minute refill every two hours just to take a break. Who is going to get there first?
When you talk about a lifetime of cost, do you include the battery you are wearing out? How much do you think that costs the environment? Do you even know how they are made?
Again, this sounds like a toy, maybe for people that already have millions to waste and days to waste on trips. Ask yourself, is this "investment" in stopping and waiting to charge reasonable for the average person? A person that works to make money, not some trust fund child that has time and money to burn while their "bad year" is when their stocks might fall below 8%.
As a commuter, if I only had 5 miles to go, I'm sure it would be efficient enough if parked in the perfect direct light 90% of the year, but most people commute 20+ minutes a day and need to take out a loan to buy a car. This just won't catch on unless it does and is a whole lot better.
Don't get me wrong, as a concept it's nice but hardly practical. Last Feb I drove the family to Disney in my prius. There was room, and it only cost about $50 round trip in gas. The time savings alone on family trips is incentive enough not to go electric until it actually matures. Maybe battery swapping stations might be a better idea. Only 20 minutes instead of hours.
Regarding spare tires: A little research on my part indicates the Prius no longer comes with a spare tire either. Apparently, like my old 2014 Chevy Volt, they come with "fix a flat" kits. Of course you can always buy one and keep it with you if you are feeling the odds are against you, or you're traveling in some back country places.
You won't need to stop at all along the way because of Aptera's long range, just charge it while you sleep at your road trip destination. Aptera has a multiple day road trip range, much further than the Prius battery + gas tank. You can plug an Aptera into any 120 or 240 volt outlet or Level 2 charging station to "fill it up" at up to 50 miles/hour; that's 500 miles in 10 hours overnight. At a fast DC charger you could add 250 miles in half an hour, while you stretch, eat, relax or shop.
This 1st Aptera will be a great car for short or long distance commuting, and for 1 or 2 person road trips, as long as you aren't planning to drive more than say, 800 miles per day. I know I would never want to drive more than about 600 miles per day, with multiple rest stops along the way.
Then, at your motel or resort with Level 2 destination chargers, you could totally recharge for the next day's adventure while you sleep. A free app like PlugShare (www.plugshare.com) will show you all the places you can charge today and even help you plan your road trip, showing all the 10's of 1000's of charging stations across North America.
This first Aptera isn't for everyone and it doesn't appear to be the vehicle for you, hybrid or no. You can't drive your family anywhere in it, since it is a 2 seat only roadster, not a family car.
I suggest you check back in a year or 2 by which time Aptera Motors will hopefully have their 5 or 6 seat, 4 wheeled, efficient family EV designed, produced and ready for sale, if that's what you're looking for.
In that interval, 10,000's more fast charging stations will have been be added across this country in shopping centers and parking lots everywhere, and the price of batteries and therefore EV's will continue to drop to be much closer to price parity with fuel burning cars.
My vision of the near future: In a few (2?) years, once EV's drop below price parity of polluting cars, those old cars will begin to die out because they will have become too expensive to keep, except by rich, classic car collectors. Then fuel pumps will begin to close for lack of business, and in 2 decades you will need an app just to navigate on road trips to find a rare, operating gas station.
Let me ask you - do YOU even know how lithium ion batteries are made today - not ten years ago? Are you aware that most modern LI batteries are 50+% recyclable and that all the metals in them can be reused (the non-recyclable parts are mostly plastics)? Are you aware that the current projected lifespan of an automotive LI battery is 200,000 miles - and that, when the capacity to run a vehicle is diminished, that same battery can be used for grid storage or for backup storage at a house or business? Are you aware that MOST modern EVs can DC charge to 80% in 20-30 minutes, not "hours"? Are you aware that the charging lines you see on the news are for Tesla vehicles and then only at specific high-traffic, high-ownership locations in California? Do you remember the 70's - when we had to wait in line for HOURS to buy 2 to 5 gallons of rationed gasoline?
It seems that a lot of your "knowledge" is based on antiquated information - as is your belief that most cars come with spare tires: Toyota stopped putting them in the Prius in 2017. At last count there are over 200 models from all manufacturers sold in the US that do not have spares: Most include a fix-a-flat kit but the more expensive brands use run-flat tires.
So, yeah, we get it - a 2-seat vehicle isn't for you: We won't see you in a Corvette or a Miata, either. But, for some of us, the Aptera will push all the right buttons. I'm tired of my country being on its knees to OPEC and I'm tired of burning petroleum and polluting the atmosphere. I work for a living and work hard for the little I earn - so I want it to stretch as far as it can: Lower maintenance and fuel costs will help. With a longer-range EV like Aptera I'll be able to go most everywhere I need to go without stopping to charge and, for the few 1200+ mile journeys I make each year, I'll continue to stop for 20 minutes after every 300 miles or so - just as I do now - but in an Aptera I'll be charging at every other stop.
I already drive a Prius. If I wanted another one, I'd buy that instead. I wouldn't mind room for a 3rd seat, perhaps a folding one, if it didn't detract from the rest of the car, but that's about it. V2G seems like it would be nice too, but won't be a dealbreaker if it doesn't materialize.
Am I missing something with these comments? Why do naysayers all think these cars cost $100k+ and have a stone’s throw range? The Aptera is cheaper than either of my EVs at $26,000 and blows both of them away in range. And this is from someone who makes less than $20/hour.
The top Aptera is $46,000 and beats ALL other vehicles in range. It’s 100 kWh battery would be enough to drive from Pittsburgh, PA to Daytona Beach, FL and still not use it all.
@PV1 First - don't let them get to you. Second - maybe: Many people still want to think that electric vehicles are little more than golf carts with side doors. This might be their only experience with EVs - in most of the US, EVs are as common as hens' teeth. Before Covid I gave quite a few electric demo rides in my Honda Clarity PHEV: Out to the interstate, down to the next exit and back - about a five mile loop - which (with regen) would use about 3.5 miles of range. 30 mph in town, 75 mph on the interstate and 45 mph on the state highway back into town. Every single one was FLABBERGHASTED - they had NO idea that an EV was a "real" car! And the one question they always ask? "Where do I go to get electricity for it?"
@Kerbe #12705 I still try to counter them for other folks reading that have similar thoughts. They don’t really get to me; I get tired of countering arguments that were barely true 6 years ago.
As for test rides, my favorite was last summer. Had a lady that swore up and down that EVs were slow, cramped tin cans that would be crushed by an SUV. I didn’t even try to counter her, but instead invited her to go for a ride. Needless to say, the spacious cabin of the Bolt, along with 150 kW of motive power and sports car handling changed her mind.
A former coworker and myself were having a drawn out conversation about EVs, and I had the feeling he was missing a key point. So I casually mentioned that the car charges at home and I leave with a full charge. Then you could see everything click in his brain.
@Kerbe #12705 I really hope these vehicles come to fruition and hope that I, too am able to give others the experience of Aptera here in Memphis. I was the first person in Memphis to own the M2 when it came out in 2016 and had complete strangers contacting me from Nashville to see if they could drive it. Of course, I was happy to share the experience with them. Likewise, with Aptera, I ordered the Paradigm (400mi) in the hopes of being one of the first to own one of these revolutionary vehicles. I look forward to again being able to share the experience.
Just for fun, though, let’s pretend it‘s 2012 again and charging infrastructure is rare at best. I plan my charging stops around activities to do en route. Examples would be mostly finding hotels that allow 110 volt charging overnight, using campgrounds to get 240 volt charging, or if I do have to wait hours for a charging station, find an alternative or sleep in the car until I can either start charging or while the car is charging. Make the best use of the time, even if that is spent rolling 25 MPH to the next charging station to avoid a crowd.
Several years back, a couple drove their i-MiEV along Route 66 from Illinois to CA and back. In 2010, during the big snowstorm that swept across the midwest, Tesla drove a Roadster from Cali to the Detroit Auto Show.
Nowadays, Tesla superchargers are so fast that one rarely has to wait for the car. In the 10-15 minutes it takes to use the restroom and get refreshments, the car has gained back over 100 miles.
As for spare tires, I have in my Bolt. I carry a jack, full spare, and tools, all purchased after the fact because Chevy relies on self-sealing tires and don’t even include an air compressor, a trend far from unique to EVs. I’ve had two flats in the Bolt that all of this gear couldn’t do a thing for, as they happened before I had it. My other car, the I-MiEV, hasn’t had a tire problem in 8 years. The air compressor is still shrink-wrapped.
@PV1 For me it's not "let's pretend" - it's reality: I live in the middle of a three-state charging desert. My work requires trips to Atlanta and Chattanooga - and the only DC chargers between here and there are in Atlanta and Chattanooga - 450 miles away in either direction. Yes, there are sufficient Supercharger stations to make the journey but I can't afford a Tesla. Of the 34 Chevy dealerships in my state only ONE will sell the Bolt - I had to drive 135 miles into another state to buy my Clarity because none of the local Honda dealers would get one for me. So my choices are limited to Tesla or something with incredible range.
In the attached image I'm in the hexagon - the CCS charger directly south of me is 81 miles away, but I rarely need to travel in that direction. So, yes, I "could" drive to Atlanta or Chattanooga in a non-Tesla EV, but it would add hundreds of miles and many, many hours to either journey. MOST of the continental US is underserved by charging infrastructure.
@Kerbe #12705 Your map is missing several stations, notably these ones:
318 Hwy 82, Winona, MS 38967
630 Colonial Promenade Pkwy, Alabaster, AL 35007, USA
With that (and some careful driving for the second leg), these stations can connect you to the rest of the network and make your drives possible without a 5 hour level 2 stop.
@PV1 The map I posted was of multiple-charger stations, mostly EA.
The Winona unit is a single 25 kW unit that incorporates CCS, ChaDeMo and L2 at a McDonalds. I understand that it is unreliable. Plus it's not along any of my usual routes. It was installed in September of this year and has been down since December 9. If it was operational it would make the drive to Memphis possible in a non-Tesla - but I don't go to Memphis.
The Alabaster location is EA - and is brand-spanking new! It just opened last week - I didn't realize it was even there! It's only about 40 miles out of the way if I'm heading to Chattanooga - and only about 10 miles off my route to Atlanta. It's also 297 miles from my location, so I'd not make it in any non-Tesla currently available.
Trust me, I've done my homework on this, as have EV-driving friends who've wanted to attempt to visit me.
But the good news is that the connection is almost there. That was not the case for most of the US 8 years ago. The infrastructure has a long way to go, but it has come leaps and bounds in the last few years. By the time your Clarity is due for replacement, conventional EVs like the Bolt will have the infrastructure and range improvements to easily make that trip, and vehicles like the Aptera will laugh and drive right by the stations.
Reading posts like yournot's makes it seem that EV charging is about as common as Hydrogen fueling stations. When I was shopping for my i-MiEV back in 2012, the first dealer tried hard to sell me on a car that didn't have quick charging, stating that there weren't any stations in the area. I insisted that I wanted quick charging and opted to wait until I found a car that had it. I found it a few months later, and sure enough, quick chargers started popping up later that year.
@PV1 Yup, and that's my gamble. The Clarity will be paid off in three years, just about the time I expect my Aptera reservation number to come up. If I can get an Aptera, I won't need to worry about charging availability. If infrastructure improves and Aptera doesn't make it, there will be other vehicular options available. So my prospects of driving fully electrically are good.
Nice discussion. I'll chime in with some similar experiences.
I got a Fiat 500e BEV a little over 5 years ago. Pre-Covid I gave lots of test drives. By the 2nd one I realized they HAVE to actually drive it to feel the instant torque. Test route from where I worked, stop sign (0-30 test) steep uphill 180-degree on-ramp, over a mile-long arched highway-speed bridge & back. Every driver was very impressed, & at least 5 of them that I know of subsequently got EVs as their primary car.
I once picked my boss up at the airport & let him drive us back. He had driven through the side-streets, boulevard, onramp, & a few miles down the freeway before he finally understood that it was 100% electric-powered, because it drives just like any other car (except for the instant torque, but he was on his good behavior).
It has no spare tire, nor did my friend's eGolf, nor many current gas cars. Just a sealant/compressor kit. AAA says they get more calls for dead starter batteries than flats. Based on that, it would make more sense to add a jumpstarter before adding a spare tire. I HAVE had 3 punctures, all slow enough leaks to pump & drive, including one irreparable leak but replaced free with America's Tire warranty.
The super-cool thing about the Aptera is that with such amazing efficiency AND solar charging, there's little to no need for much additional infrastructure, including home charging stations or even an extension cord! But even just the latter will add over 100 miles during 8 hours of sleep or work, for people driving more than average. Otherwise just park it in the sun, which I recently realized would reverse the usual looking for a shady spot: "Hey, if you're leaving I'd like to take your nice sunny spot."🙂