EV law, tax, rebate info

[Pistonboy]

Some are purchasing Apteras over the $40,000 limit. It would be nice if they can purchase a more stripped down version keeping the cost below $40,000 , then extra batteries and features are added later. But I don’t think any of this is relevant. The Aptera is a motorcycle, and I strongly suspect this only applies to automobiles, not motorcycles.

[steven-g-bueche]

Just like the last rounds of ‘Credit’ will they be Liability Credits or Point of Sale? What good is it if you don’t owe money to the government when you file your taxes? If you’re due a refund or break even it’s almost as if you’re being punished for being a good planner.

Point Of Sale is the only way they should give these credits.

[OZ.]

I think you may misunderstand, This type of credit is against your total tax bill for the year, not for what you owe or get at filing time, so it would increase your refund to offset for taxes paid. This type is classified as “Non-refundable” as opposed to “Refundable” the difference being that with a “Non-refundable” the credit cannot exceed your taxes owed for the year. (IE a $7500 credit can reduce your $10,000 tax liability for the year down to $2500, but if your total Fed Tax liability was only $7000 the excess $500 goes away and ceases to exist, if it were a “Refundable” credit you would get back the $7000 you paid in taxes plus $500 bonus dollars at filing time.

[fanfare-100]

NewJersey’s again offering $5K off #ElectricVehicles!! Here’s how: https://www.nj.com/news/2021/07/nj-is-again-offering-5k-off-electric-vehicles-heres-how-it-works.html So, potentially, for New Jerseyans, an Aptera could cost as little as: ****$13,400****

WOOHOO!!

[harry-parker]

Hate to burst your bubble. As the ancient saying goes,

“The large print Giveth and the small print Taketh Away.”

After clicking on the “Terms and Conditions” in the fine print of

https://chargeup.njcleanenergy.com

we learn on the last page of many that “2 and 3 wheeled vehicles are ineligible”. ????

We need to do a little lobbying here in NJ to get that revised.

[fanfare-100]

Thanks for looking into it Harry. Hopefully Steve & friends are working on getting the Aptera included into the regular family of vehicles instead of the government considering these to be dune buggies and the like.

[joshua-rosen]

Please write your Congressperson and let them know that you oppose the new bill that will give $12,500 credits to the big 3 and probably nothing for Aptera because it has only three wheels. Should the government be subsidizing F150 Lightnings that will probably get 2 miles/KWh at the expense of a Aptera that gets 10 miles/KWh. The credits are simply not necessary anymore, the entry level price of the Aptera is only $26K and they are doing it through innovation not by government subsidies. This bill encourages watt guzzlers at the expense of innovative cars from startups. I don’t think there should be any subsidy at this point, it’s not necessary at this point. The top three selling EVs are the Model Y, Model 3 and Bolt, none of which get a tax credit under the current law.

Even if they retain a subsidy it should be much smaller, $12,500 is obscene.

[steve-lee]

I think they should tie the credits to efficiency because the goal is to reduce energy consumption.

[993cc]

How about writing to your Congressperson and asking that the credit be extended to three wheeled vehicles?

[joshua-rosen]

One more detail from this terrible bill. They do have a provision for three wheelers, it’s only $2500. However they are giving $4000 rebates to plugin hybrids as long as the battery is 10KWh or more. That means that a Toyota Prius Prime with a pathetic 25 miles of range will get a $4000 rebate, an Aptera with a 1000 miles of range will get only $2500.

[john-malcom]

One last point. Aptera management supports this bill. They have asked their ambassadors to write to their representatives and senators using a form letter to express support and to include three wheeled vehicles more broadly.

For everyone on this forum that is inspired to write their representatives with opposition to the bill (Certainly their right) it negates one ambassadors influence.

It is always my hope that the Aptera community can come together and collectively and enthusiastically support the direction the company wants to go

[noah-blumenthal]

For anyone interested, below is a status update on the NYS legislation to allow people with standard driver’s licenses to operate autocycles (instead of requiring motorcycle licenses).

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Good Morning,

I am writing regarding your email requesting information on A7192 relating to auto-cycles. As you may be aware, this bill passed both the Assembly and Senate during the 2020 and 2021 legislative sessions in Albany. Last session, Governor Cuomo vetoed the bill citing issues with the definition of “auto-cycle.” It is also known that Governor Cuomo had personal experiences on auto-cycles and he didn’t agree with the premise of the bill. For your review, I have included the veto message at the bottom of this email.

I contacted the sponsor’s office, Assemblywoman Lupardo. Staff explained the bill was amended to reflect the language issues mentioned in the veto memo from 2020. During Governor Hochul’s transition to office the amount of bills being sent to the Governor’s office, for signature, have significantly slowed down. However, the sponsor’s office is hopeful Governor Hochul will positively analyze the bill and support the amendments.

I would be happy to notify you when the Governor takes action on this bill.

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/S4580

—

VETO MESSAGE – No. 59

TO THE ASSEMBLY:

I am returning herewith, without my approval, the following bill:

Assembly Bill Number 5390-B, entitled:

“AN ACT to amend the vehicle and traffic law, in relation to the
operation of a three-wheeled vehicle”

NOT APPROVED

This bill would allow for the operation of an autocycle by a person
holding a Class D license. A Class D license allows a holder to operate
a standard automobile. Currently, to operate an autocycle in this State,
a person must hold a Class M license, which allows for the operation of
a motorcycle.

In the bill, an “autocycle” is defined as a “three-wheeled vehicle”
without reference to the placement of the wheels. As such, the bill
fails to make a proper distinction between a standard autocycle, with
two wheels situated in the front and one wheel in the rear, and a three-
wheeled motorcycle, with one wheel situated in the front and two in the
rear. This flaw would allow persons operating three-wheeled motorcycles
to do so with a Class D automobile license, rather than the more appro-
priate Class M motorcycle license.

Furthermore, an autocycle is inherently less safe to operate, and its
open air design provides far less crash protection, than a standard
automobile. Forty-eight other states require a motorcycle license or
special endorsement to operate because an autocycle does not handle like
an automobile. An operator would benefit from the increased instruction
and testing necessary to pass a driver’s test for a Class M motorcycle
license.

For the foregoing reasons, and to maintain the current level of safety
on our State’s roads, I am constrained to veto this bill.

The bill is disapproved. (signed) ANDREW M. CUOMO

[joshua-rosen]

In MA the last action on S2360, which is similar legislation, occurred on March 29th when it was referred to committee. I just wrote the sponsor of the bill to see what’s happening but I fear that it’s died in committee because it’s been six months.

[richtidd]

As if today, here is a general idea as to where the 1.75 Trillion Infrastructure bill may include for EV tax credits. If passed we will need more info as to details:

The Biden administration aims to secure $555 billion in spending to address climate change, an amount the White House says makes the bill the biggest clean energy investment in the nation’s history.
• The bulk of the clean energy measures come in the form of tax breaks for companies and consumers that install solar panels, improve the energy efficiency of buildings, and purchase electric vehicles. The EV tax credit in particular could lower the cost of such a vehicle by $12,500 for a middle-class family, according to the administration.

[anoop-patel]

Not sure if you heard but the latest spending bill proposes a 30% CREDIT FOR 3-WHEEL VEHICLES up to $7500!!!! Reference Part 4–Greening The Fleet and Alternative Vehicles Sec. 136401 (2-wheel/3-wheel EV Credit). Requires a minimum of 2.5kWh battery which I presume even the 200-mile Aptera does.

[ray-rivera]

Easy fix : 1, buy a lower model Aptera and get the maximum tax credit ; 2, add rear motor for AWD; 3, add leather seats; 4, add all other gadgets aftermarket, etc.

Ask CEO of Aptera to set up an aftermarket shop for buyers who want to maximize their tax credit for the purchases of Aptera EVs.

[john-malcom]

Another uphill battle like we are waging here. For us most likely less than 50/50 chance of getting our national incentives passed into law as they are now written and only CA has a robust state program. Some states have something but most, including FL where I live have nothing.

I have always been a little naive, but can’t understand why people and their leaders have such a difficult time doing what is best for the greater good.

I can tell you the GM EV people are elated about the advantage they will have for their Chevrolet Bolt EV products.

[V-Pilot]

Can/will Aptera open a “showroom” in states that do not allow direct vehicle sales in order for buyers to get state incentives/rebates?

[joshua-rosen]

Check the rules in your state. I’ve gotten two MA rebates in the past, for a Volt and a Model 3, the process is to fill out a form with the registration number. The Volt was bought in NH the Tesla was delivered in MA, state didn’t care where I bought it only that I registered it in MA and that I paid them their sales tax. The rules for which vehicles qualify are different in every state. The Aptera is an autocycle not a car and that will effect the rebate amount. We are a year away from the first deliveries so things can change in that time, for example the wording of the rebate rule in MA says Electric Vehicle but the list of eligible vehicles is all cars, no motorcycles are included. There is a bill concerning autocycles that’s been sitting in the legislature, if that passes that will change a bunch of rules for autocycles but I don’t know if it will effect rebates.

Some states limit the rebates to cars that are sold through dealers, others only care that you’ve registered it in the state. The rebates may apply to cars only or depending on the state motorcycles might also have a rebate. The only way for you to tell is to look up your state’s rules.

[V-Pilot]

Yes, there are a lot of “if’s” between now and when deliveries get scheduled. Unfortunately I live in the Draconian state of NY, that does not allow direct sales of motor vehicles to the public. I know Tesla is leading the fight to change the franchise laws but it’s a serious uphill battle. They have a small grandfathered in foothold here for their showrooms. Here the rebates have to go directly through a stealership at point of purchase. Currently none of the “startup” EV manufacturers are on the list, only the legacy auto companies.

[curtis-cibinel]

It appears Build Back Better is functionally dead at this point due to loss of a swing vote from Manchin and with it the incentives for Aptera (e-motorcycles) in the US. Hoping that smaller scale legislation with increased carbon/gas/new ICE car tax can come along as a more fiscally responsible way of balancing the externalities of gas cars.

[joshua-rosen]

There was a hearing on the MA bill on 11/30 so something is happening.

[Dr.D]

There is a new bill being drafted in DC concerning energy and climate change. It appears to include a $12,500 subsidy for EVs. But will the wording of subsidy language make the subsidy apply to EV motorcycles and autocycles? Contact your representatives in DC and make your voice heard!

[BUG]

This is the closest in time to the present that I can find…

https://www.ntu.org/library/doclib/2021/09/What-s-the-Deal-with-Tax-Credits-for-Electric-Vehicles-1-.pdf

[BUG]

Extra Incentives $4500 and $500 for UNION made (IN THE U.S.) EV and Batteries, respectively.

[james-kyle]

This is something that’s beginning to trouble me also. I mean first of all the car has to get past the UK standards and the 2235mm width of the car but should it get past that, there are also the plates to consider.

In the UK if its classed as a motorcycle/tricycle you only need one plate at rear of the vehicle. But there are minimum sizes for for the font, the spaces in between and the margin around the plate.

The minimum size you can get away with if its a motorcycle and you’ve got a standard 7 letter registration is 231 mm wide and 161 mm high. If you’ve a private plate with less letters then it will be smaller. But not by much, unless you own plate ‘A1’ which would be 121 mm high and 86 mm high.

My main concern is if the rear panel on the Aptera is smaller than that minimum 231×161 mm, then any plate attached to it would cause aerodynamic drag, which defeats the whole point of the car. The plate would also need to movable in order to access the charging point, meaning that a sticker plate isn’t an option because the size requirements.

It’s worth noting as well that stickers are usually not strictly legal either because they must be reflective and they tend not to be because the reflective paint that meets the UK standard isn’t flexible enough.

But if its classed as a quad cycle (which it likely will be due to its power output) it gets worse. It would legally fall into the same bracket as a normal car, meaning it will need a front plate as well, with a commensurate increase in the minimum font size and spacing requirements therefore a minimum rear and front plate of 438×101 mm for a standard 7 letter reg number.

Again a sticker plate isn’t really an option because of the reflectivity issue. Also any vehicle facing its first annual MOT inspection when 3 years old would fail the inspection without a reflective plate. An inflexible acrylic plate on the front of the car is going to double its drag.

I know that these issues are being looked at by the team and its likely at least two years before I see my Aptera but these are things that need addressing in the design phase of the car rather than as an afterthought.

[gary-greenway]

In the Rich Rebuilds interview published April 17, 2022, Chris mentions a $7500 tax credit. According to the IRS, it’s still $2500 for 2 and 3 wheeled vehicles. Is some change imminent that we don’t know about?