Riversimple – Very efficient small hydrogen cars for subscription only

Aptera Community Solar EV Industry News Riversimple – Very efficient small hydrogen cars for subscription only

Aptera Community Solar EV Industry News Riversimple – Very efficient small hydrogen cars for subscription only

  • Riversimple – Very efficient small hydrogen cars for subscription only

  • Peter Jorgensen

    Member
    October 4, 2021 at 12:25 pm

    Found this recently – Riversimple. They’re a company in wales that plans to provide hydrogen cars to people for a subscription. No purchase options. In any case, it reminds me a lot of those in Europe asking for 4 wheel narrower Apteras. Not electric though…

    https://www.riversimple.com/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riversimple

  • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

    Member
    October 5, 2021 at 10:26 am

    ive posted before about having electric drive mad so its modular, so what ever tech wins in the future, car is ready fto adapt it, given electric drive is probably the future but battery tech has been changing a lot from freepiston trubine combustion, hydrogen laser cassete, different electric battery, etc. air pressure regenerative braking maybe useful as support to mainly electric drive as air could be stored in other wise useless empty spaces in chassis etc, maybe even including folding air tank/bag for use when there is no plan to utilize the trunk/rear seat space, etc.

    maybe parts of drivetrain swapped for rental of more/less power, chassis would nly need to be swapped if wanting heavy towing or race track car. swapping could be simplified so anyone could do it with a heavy lifting device, through removing seats and accessing through the door and trunk rather than making a door at the bottom of car.

    aesthetic textures like wood stone etc can be stuck to modular platform and screwed into car too, allowing people to personalize and to sell textures similar to how decoration is sold for people homes, extra clothes jewelry etc.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    October 5, 2021 at 11:04 am

    It’s a scam to raise money. Hydrogen cars make absolutely no sense, the cost to fuel them is twice the cost to fuel a gas car using filthy reformed methane and much more than that if you use clean hydrogen because the process of electrolysis is inefficient. From windmill to wheels a hydrogen car uses a couple of times as much electricity as a battery car because you have big losses converting the electricity into hydrogen and then converting it back to electricity. You also have to take the transport and distribution costs into account. The volumetric efficiency of compressed hydrogen is awful, hydrogen may not weigh much but it takes a lot of space, so each truck can transport much less energy than a gasoline truck. The cost of hydrogen refueling stations is also much much higher than DC fast charging stations, the figure that I’ve seen in InsideEVs is something like $4M per station. Not only are the H2 stations expensive you need 10 times as many of them as DC charge stations because there is no such thing as home hydrogen fueling.

    To see how little sense a hydrogen car makes compare the Toyota Mirai side by side with a Tesla Model 3,

    Curb weight

    Mirai 4255-4335lbs

    Model 3 SR+ 3552lbs

    Model 3 AWD 4072lbs

    Luggage space

    Mirai 9.6 cu ft

    Model 3 15 cu ft

    0-60

    Mirai 9.2 seconds

    Model 3 SR+ 5.3 second

    Model 3 AWD 4.4 sec

    Model 3 Performance 3.1 sec

    Price

    Mirai $49,400-$66,000

    M3 SR+ $39,990

    M3 AWD $49,990

    M3 Performance $56,990

    The Mirai also has a much smaller backseat than the Model 3

    The hydrogen tanks are the reason that H2 cars have so little space, they are large and the form factor is constrained by the fact that they operate at 10,000 PSI. You can stuff batteries anywhere, usually it’s a skate board under the floor, that’s why BEVs can be so space efficient. Fuel cells also produce electricity at a lower rate than batteries, that’s why the Mirai is so dog slow.

    • Peter Jorgensen

      Member
      October 5, 2021 at 11:49 am

      Well said. I think it’s a sadly misguided venture trying to use H2. The car however looks interesting otherwise. Small, efficient… Etc. I wonder how hard it would be to convert one to battery only, and what kind of range and efficiency it would have? Not as good as Aptera for sure but I wonder where it falls… Of course if I can’t even buy it there’s no point worrying about that…

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        October 5, 2021 at 1:04 pm

        The other reason that I think they are a scam like Nikola is that they basing the venture on a subscription rather than a sales model. This sounds like they picked a buzz word out of the air and put it on their website. Canoo was also going to use a subscription model but I think they’ve dropped that idea, however in Canoo’s case they have a very distinctive vehicle so I’m not saying that using a subscription model is necessarily suspicious but when you combine it with other smelly things, i.e. hydrogen, then it raises a further red flag.

    • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

      Member
      October 5, 2021 at 7:47 pm

      have you heard of hydrogen laser cassette and the hydrogen paste? i got one of these from sandy munroe, some video. we dont know much but maybe one of us may, b/c its not really new either.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        October 5, 2021 at 9:14 pm

        I watched Sandy’s video on it. It might make it easier to distribute the hydrogen but it doesn’t fix the efficiency problems. It also doesn’t fix the environmental problems of hydrogen. Almost all hydrogen comes from reformed methane which releases as much or more CO2 into the atmosphere than burning gasoline. Green hydrogen isn’t green either because it wastes green energy which has to be made up with fossil fuel derived power. If there was an excess of renewable or nuclear power then it wouldn’t matter as much but that’s in the distant future. If you have a KWh of clean electricity it’s better to but it into a BEV that can go four miles on it then to put it into a HEV that can only go 2 miles.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    October 5, 2021 at 9:18 pm

    Looks like a 1st Gen Honda Insight I owned.

    Strongly agree with Joshua. Hydrogen makes no sense to power cars. Toyota is the chief proponent for hydrogen cars. Certainly not doing well in the market. They missed the boat with hydrogen now behind on switching to electricity.

    As of January 2021 there were only 45 publicly accessible refueling stations in all of the US, 43 of which were located in California. My guess, less in Wales, only about 17 in all of GB. Subscription or purchase would make no difference if you can’t find a place to refuel

    Here is a link to a very detailed NREL study on Hydrogen use in a broader context. 106 pages. Only interesting to those that are not faint of heart and drink a lot of coffee.

    http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/77610.pdf

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      October 6, 2021 at 7:03 am

      Here’s my theory on Toyota. They are using hydrogen as a distraction until they can produce solid state batteries in volume. Toyota has just demonstrated a concept car running on solid state batteries that puts them several years ahead of everyone else trying to make solid state batteries. Their plan might be to skip the current generation of batteries and jump straight to solid state batteries, if they can do that they will leapfrog everyone else. The problem for them is that they can’t do that before 2025 or 2026. That plan could conceivably work in the US where EV adoption outside of California has been slow. The EU has a higher adoption rate than the US and they are growing faster. They also have better charging infrastructure then the US and ultimately that’s the limiting factor. So in the EU Toyota might have lost so much market share by 2025 that it will be hard for them to recover but in the US they might be hitting the market at exactly the right time.

  • Ken Bolinsky

    Member
    October 6, 2021 at 8:12 am

    Riversimple vehicles are electric – they react hydrogen and oxygen in a fuel cell to create electricity that’s then stored in a buffer battery to power electric motors.

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      October 6, 2021 at 8:26 am

      All HEVs are electric and have a small battery like a hybrid. However their primary energy storage is hydrogen not in a large battery.

    • Peter Jorgensen

      Member
      October 6, 2021 at 2:20 pm

      That’s true. I’d love to see them just swap the H2 cell for a battery.

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