Projected range vs actual vs unneeded battery

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Projected range vs actual vs unneeded battery

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Projected range vs actual vs unneeded battery

  • Projected range vs actual vs unneeded battery

     Ray Holan updated 1 month, 1 week ago 11 Members · 22 Posts
  • Vincent Rodgers

    Member
    October 27, 2021 at 5:39 pm

    This is what I’ve been wondering. 1,000 mile range. Is that in city driving only? I’d love to know what REAL WORLD range is (combined city & hwy driving) for each of the battery sizes so I can decide which one to get when I place my order. I don’t want to spend more than I’ll ever use & don’t want to carry around excess weight baggage of an oversized battery pack that I’ll never need to use. Does anyone have any solid info on this? I don’t mind buying the 1k range battery if I’m going to need it for regular everyday use. I previously looked at the Zero electric motorcycle and learned that it’s range dropped quite a lot at hwy speeds.

  • Leonard Nowak

    Moderator
    October 27, 2021 at 5:53 pm

    The old info I have is OLD and everything has to be validated anyway

    ~ 10% range hit for AWD

    ~ 1% range hit for every 30#, but I don’t the wait of an off wheel package, etc

    I understand, for battery healthy “ routinely” people don’t charge much more than 85% of battery

    I am sure you know cold and heat will impact and speeds over -65mph and inclines too.. like any EV

    Then there is the payload capacity of 500# but that is more a suspension/ride concern

  • Richard Marks

    Member
    October 27, 2021 at 6:01 pm

    Hadn’t seen the payload capacity of 500# before. Will that include the passengers? Will that be different for various configurations as 400 vs 1000 mile range?

    • Ray Holan

      Member
      October 27, 2021 at 6:57 pm

      Richard, In regard to your max payload question, my understanding is that the 500 lb. recommended maximum payload refers to the combination of driver and passenger plus baggage.

  • Peter Jorgensen

    Member
    October 27, 2021 at 6:09 pm

    Give it 6 months.

    Real world range varies drastically for no good reason across EV brands. Teslas struggle to reach their rating. The Kia Niro EV on the other hand gets a good 35% more range than it’s EPA rating.

    Like any EV, if you plan for 50% you should be fine in the snow on the interstate. So if you need to drive 4 hours at 70 between towns (280 miles) double it (560) and buy the 600 mile version and you’ll be super safe on trips.

    In my experience “300” miles of ideal range is enough for road trips in the lower 48 but more would be nice for fewer stops and longer legs. I’d get the 600 if you take a lot of road trips in the west, otherwise 400 is plenty for most.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    October 27, 2021 at 6:39 pm

    Battery range is of great interest as it is a key feature of Aptera. Until the final prototype version of the Aptera undergoes testing to include battery range we will not know the answer to range questions. Most of what we know now is based on engineering estimates and simulation. I am sure pretty close but certainly not official and nothing I would use to plan with.

    Remember, you don’t need to make a decision on the configuration of your vehicle until your number comes up on the reservation list. By that point all performance information from testing will have been available and you can make an informed choice.

    If you are down the list somewhat you will also have real world experience from owners to draw on as well.

    Don’t worry be happy, as the song says.😁

    And yes, the 500lb load limit includes passengers. I am sure you could carry more just like you can overload any car or truck, but then you will not get the advertised performance.

  • Ray Holan

    Member
    October 27, 2021 at 6:56 pm

    Vince, you may also want to consider the impact on acceleration of the larger battery packs. Of course, taking a passenger with you will slow you down and reduce your range somewhat.

    Aptera lists curb weight of the vehicle without driver or passenger as 1,800-2,000 lbs.

    However, if you figure the 25kWh pack configuration is 1,800 lbs. and gets you about 250 miles of range, going to the 1,000 mile max pack will likely add much more than an additional 200 lbs. (the difference between 1,800 and 2,000 lb. curb weight as listed in the current Aptera brochure I’ve seen).

    As others have stated, we can only speculate at this stage of Aptera development about the range you and I can actually achieve with the various battery packs they will offer. For whatever battery pack size you decide upon, the weight of the vehicle, how flat or hilly your route is, how heavy you are on the accelerator — these will impact your Aptera’s range in the same way they affect an ICE vehicle’s MPG.

    • BRUCE MENGLER

      Member
      October 27, 2021 at 8:00 pm

      I may be incorrect. I calculated the 25kW pack weighs 220lbs (100KG) & 100kW weighs 880lbs.
      This was just for the batter cells & did not include any container or any interconnection wiring

      • Ray Holan

        Member
        October 28, 2021 at 6:32 am

        Thanks for those estimated weight numbers, Bruce. I had a sneaking suspicion the larger pack options would bump up the curb weight of the Aptera significantly — beyond the listed 2,000 lb. curb weight anyhow.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        October 28, 2021 at 7:07 am

        880lbs for the 100KWh battery pack sounds low. The Model 3 pack is 1060lbs for a 75KWh pack. I’d guess that the 100KWh pack will be 1200lbs and the 25KWh back in the neighborhood of 300lbs.

        • BRUCE MENGLER

          Member
          October 28, 2021 at 7:20 am

          <font color=”#262626″><font face=”Arial, sans-serif”><font size=”4″>Each
          2170 cell weighs 70 grams.
          Model 3 LR battery pack contains 4416
          cells.
          4416 * 70 = 309,120 grams / 28.35 = 10,903 oz /16 = 681.5
          lbs</font></font></font>

          <font color=”#262626″ face=”Arial, sans-serif” size=”4″>Above is based on values documented in URL below</font>

          https://insideevs.com/news/342679/tesla-model-3-2170-energy-density-compared-to-bolt-model-s-p100d/<font color=”#262626″ face=”Arial, sans-serif” size=”4″>
          </font>

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          October 28, 2021 at 7:32 am

          The battery is a massive amount of the weight. I believe the 1800 lb number was for the 60kwh and the rough number that most people have thrown around is 10lb per kwh. Each battery size will have a pretty big weight difference which is why they have said the kwh ratings are rough and they will try to make each level achieve the ranges (epa almost certainly being the goal). Base could perhaps be 21kwh because lack of weight helps and the top model might need a little over 100kwh.

          Here is my physics calculator for range – make a copy and have fun playing with the numbers. Epa millage tends to be about the equivalent of the physics for 55-60 mph continuous travel. 5-10% of the battery is generally kept as a reserve to offset degradation reducing usable capacity a little. I originally put this together to examine hypermiling potential. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tuu7avKH2dS_JPk7aiP2av09a1f1WE0OvvNH6fdHpiQ/edit?usp=drivesdk

          Important : many numbers are based on assumptions as things like frontal are are rarely published even for production vehicles.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    October 28, 2021 at 7:47 am

    The prototypes are all 400 mile versions, they haven’t built anything bigger or smaller yet so there is no data on true ranges of the other variants. The additional weight of the 60KWh pack and especially for the 100KWh pack has to have an effect on efficiency and certainly on handling. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for the 100KWh variant, that’s at least 500lbs heavier than the 40KWh version, they will have to modify the suspension to handle that.

    The range numbers right now are just estimates, until they do actual range tests they won’t have real numbers. For now I have the 600 mile version reserved, I’ll make my final determination when they have real numbers.

    When actual range numbers are available I’d calculate the usable range as (.8 * EPA range) -40 and that’s on a good day, i.e. 70F and no rain. The .8 assumes that you charge to no more than 90% and that there is 10% battery degradation. I have a two year old Model 3, it’s current range is 280 miles vs 310 when new, lithium batteries degrade over time so you should take that into account. The -40 is the amount of range you would like to have left when you reach your destination, you don’t want any doubt about being able to get home. For the 600 mile version that would equate 440 miles of real range on a nice day and you drive with a light foot, if you are doing 75 or 80 it will be less. If it’s raining that could be 15-20% less and if you need heat, and they use a resistance heater, it will be 40% less. If they use a heat pump the hit from heat will be less than it is for resistance heat but I don’t have a number for that, my Model 3 has a resistance heater and it’s awful.

    I’m hoping that the 600 mile version stays at that range when they get to production, that’s a magic number for me. I don’t commute, I just do long day trips. A car with > 400 miles of range will cover virtually all of my day trips without needing to charge. Not needing to charge is a game changer, it means that your itinerary can be flexible. With the Tesla I can go anywhere because the Supercharger network has a pretty good footprint and it’s absolutely reliable. However I have to plan my trips with ABRP and I can’t deviate from the plan. Usually that’s not a problem but last Saturday it was. We went to North Conway NH in the White Mountains, we wanted to double back to a place that looked interesting but I didn’t feel I could because of range limitations. In a couple of weeks that particular trip would have been easier because they are building a new Supercharger in North Conway which should be up and running in a week or two, but that option wasn’t available last Saturday. The Aptera is using CCS which is at least two years behind Tesla in terms of it’s footprint and even more importantly the CCS network is unreliable. While I’ve never seen a Supercharger with less than 8 chargers all of the CCS locations that I’ve seen only have one charger. Chargers break, even Superchargers, but in Tesla’s case there is quadruple redundancy (V2 chargers share cabinets so one broken cabinet will bring down two chargers, but that leaves 6 good ones). If a CCS charger breaks you’ll be SOL. The Aptera, and only the Aptera, gets around this problem by having so much range that DC charging won’t be necessary or in the rare cases that it is necessary you’ll have enough range that you can give yourself multiple charging options.

    • Peter Jorgensen

      Member
      October 28, 2021 at 8:01 am

      I believe the three alphas have tiny batteries just for testing. Less than 25kwh that is.

      My experience in the western US (Utah and Colorado) is that Electrify America has a good road trip network for a 300 mile Kia Niro EV… They usually have 4 chargers (2 350kw CCS, 1 150KW CCS, and a 150KW CCS/Chademo plug). Two of the plugs are sometimes out of order. Chargepoint 50KW CCS/Chademo is also common and sometimes free. I’ve never had a charger not work although sometimes it takes 5 minutes and several tries to get it to start.

      I’m looking forward to using the Tesla network on an adapter because I know it will be reliable and easy to use (hopefully) and I can finally visit Wyoming!

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        October 28, 2021 at 8:42 am

        Electrify America is just starting to roll out in New England, right now it’s just in Massachusetts and a tiny bit in other states. They are building their first station in Vermont, next to a Supercharger that’s been there for several years, but that will only cover a small part of the state. They have one station in Maine and it’s badly located. Whereas the Tesla Superchargers on the way to Portland are in a fantastic highway rest stop that’s right on 95 the only EA is in a Walmart in Scarborough which is out of the way. There is a CCS charger at the rest stop but it’s a single 60KW Chargepoint, the only good thing I can say about that is that nobody uses it whereas the Superchargers are generally half full or more.

        My guess is that it will take EA another two years to get to the usable level.

  • Wesley Roeder

    Member
    October 28, 2021 at 1:46 pm

    I had a 2006 Honda Insight which is the closest comparison to the Aptera in a conventional hybrid vehicle. It weighed about 1850 lbs and had a carrying capacity of 400 lbs including driver and passenger. Two normal Americans might weigh about 300-350 so that left very little for luggage, food, etc. on a road trip. At full weight it bottomed out very frequently.

    The 500 lbs quoted above for the Aptera seems reasonable at 25% of total vehicle weight and I wouldn’t count on exceeding that one rear tire (and rear brake) like you might easily do on a conventional, more robust vehicle.

    I’ve preordered a 600 mile battery and will decide later if that’s too much.

    • Lou Verner

      Member
      October 28, 2021 at 1:51 pm

      HA! Two “normal Americans” haven’t weighed 300-350 lbs since Leave it to Beaver days. Guessing that figure would be closer to 400-450 lbs. There goes the family dog or luggage!

      • Ray Holan

        Member
        October 28, 2021 at 3:28 pm

        Right, Lou. That may partially explain why SUV’s have such a large share of the market. Driving a 4,500 lb. vehicle makes just about any size driver feel small. Statistics indicate the average American is growing in girth. Not good for a chance at longer life or better fuel mileage.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        October 29, 2021 at 10:09 am

        I spent the Millennium in Nepal on the theory that if there was a Y2K problem the best way to avoid it was to be in a country that’s at Y1K. After out trek in the Himalayas we went to a National Park that was at low altitude. At the park they stuffed four of us on top of an elephant, we were squeezed as tight as sardines, it was extremely uncomfortable. Afterward I lectured them that they can’t stuff four Americans into a box that small, maybe they could put four Nepalese into a box that size and possibly three Europeans but for Americans the maximum capacity should be two.

        • Ray Holan

          Member
          October 29, 2021 at 11:17 am

          LOL. What about the trunk space? Seriously, a unique and entertaining post, man.

  • Lou Verner

    Member
    October 28, 2021 at 4:01 pm

    2/3 American adults obese! Kids not far behind, sad to say. Too sedentary, too much readily available high fat food!

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      October 28, 2021 at 9:25 pm

      Thought about responding with a meme or GIF then I realized that’s just sad and I’m legitimately worried about people’s unnamed people’s health now. 😂

      Great as if I didn’t have enough to worry about.

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