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Internet connectivity, privacy and updates
Does the Aptera have internet connectivity? (ie cellular modem)
If yes, can it be removed or disabled?
- 37 Replies
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Internet connectivity, privacy and updates
updated 1 day, 6 hours ago 25 Members · 37 Replies -
Internet connectivity isn’t optional for any modern car. OTAs require an Internet connection by definition. Navigation requires connectivity and so does service. One thing they should do that Tesla doesn’t do anymore is allow OTAs over cellular. I’ve seen discussions on Tesla forums from people who can’t easily provide WiFi access to their cars, for those people being able to do updates via the cell network would be great.
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All of that is false. But even assuming features like navigation, etc require internet connectivity, I don’t need or want those features, which leads to my second question… can it be removed or disabled?
I must assume the car can function without connectivity. For example, if driving through a dead zone. Therefore I would simply want to ensure it is always disconnected.
Let’s be clear… I am mainly concerned about forced, factory installed, cellular data service in the car. Wifi is something else entirely and doesn’t bother me as much because I can (presumably) just not select any networks.
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I would hope you could download maps to be offline for the states you plan or routinely travel in. I don’t wan to pay for another data plan or use data for the car regularly. Perhaps a maker series in the future would cover this.
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I would hope that if we don’t have cellular for OTA and navigation that they can use a cellphone for this. As much as they are trying to be minimal I think Joshua is correct that it would be very odd not to have it. Modern cars are generally highly connected devices so if they avoid the use of direct cellular they will need to put substantial design effort into ensuring a good experience to download maps and check for OTA updates.
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I hope connectivity is optional. With so many things tracking, monitoring, listening, I don’t want to add yet another to the list of things that I can’t have nearby when I want to have a private conversation. While we’re on the subject of options, I’d like the self driving hardware to be optional too.
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Internet connectivity can’t be optional, you need OTAs and they need to be able to access the diagnostic information on the car. When the car first starts shipping the software isn’t even going to be half baked, it’s going to be raw batter, it will need to be updated frequently. If you have a problem with the car you aren’t going to be able to take it to a dealer because they won’t have any. Their support is going to look at the logs in the car to see what’s going on, they need to do that remotely and that means Internet access.
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It’s a recursive and inane distinction. As if to say, software requires internet delivery if it requires internet delivery. That is not strictly necessary for software. You can do manual installs with other delivery methods. It all depends on the software architecture and deployment model.
I am a computer scientist, programmer, and cyber security engineer. You have just stated the precise reason why I don’t want internet connectivity:
“When the car first starts shipping the software isn’t even going to be half baked, it’s going to be raw batter, it will need to be updated frequently.”
What you are essentially describing here is a CI/CD software model. In the industry, this model is basically an excuse for bad quality software. I don’t want bad software connected to the internet for security reasons (especially when that software can control my vehicle).
Recognizing the dire state of the software industry, and the fact that these issues can’t be avoided, I choose not to use software features whenever possible. That means no self-driving, navigation, cloud music, etc.
The fundamental point here is that the car can function in the middle of the desert with no cell service. That is exactly the level of software functionality I want. Nothing more.
Worst case, maybe I can install a Faraday layer inside the shell.
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Im with you on this. I’d be “ok” if I could enable long enough when I’m not driving it, to do updates but I’d rather update via USB download via my computer where I have full control.
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I am sure it will be easy to find and remove the data antenna. Hopefully it isn’t the same antenna that supplies radio. I understand the argument for privacy and freedom. There is also an argument for important updates for safety. Were all adults and understand the risks.
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I guess the correct original question should have been, “Will the Aptera have internet disconectivity?” Guy SKEER said in another forum section last week:
“For a WOMAN, a CellPhone is Actually a Sceptre – It Makes Her QUEEN of ALLLLL She Surveys.
But, For a MAN, a Cellphone is but LEASH! I Don’t Need No Steeenkin’Leash!”
I agree with him and I don’t carry around a steeenkin leash (cell phone). And I cycle in my velomobile many miles away from home almost every day, and still don’t carry a cell phone. I drive a 22 year old car (Honda Insight) and a 19 year old car (Prius), nothing online. I reserved an Aptera but if its going to be a steeenkin leash, I may give up the idea, or figure a way to disconnect from the leash. Here’s what I’m willing to do.
I have wifi in my house just inside from where I have the best sun exposure. The car will sit there when I’m not driving it. If updates need to be done there are plenty of hours of connectivity. If I decide I don’t like automatic updates because the factory is messing with stuff I don’t want changed, I’ll move the wifi or park out in the field. I am not interested in carrying a cell phone just to lose my privacy. That’s why I don’t carry one now. Not because I am doing anything I am ashamed of, but because my Bible tells me about the coming end times when Christians and Patriots will be hunted down like criminals, and I want my privacy when that happens. In fact I may move the wifi anyway because someone might be able to tell when I am home when the car is parked, unless I am out in my pedal vehicle (picture in my profile, yellow contraption in front of me). I don’t want self driving, I know about uninterruptible autopilot on airliners that can be taken over from the ground, and if they can do it to an airplane, they can do it to an “online” car, which is why I would have never got a car with onstar. No phone, no “online,” no leash. If that means no Aptera or any other new car, then I pray my present cars last a long time.
So, I guess I can take off my tinfoil hat and go to bed now.
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I have an unlimited plan with 50gb free 5G per month. I typically only burn through about 15gb/month.
Most car companies only let you buy cellular service through the car maker or through their “brand partners”. I know that most companies need to prove “recurring income / subscriptions” in order to be “worth more” when they IPO but I hope we can use our own sims and service.
I would love to tether my car to my cellular plan in lieu of paying another subscription (which I wont 😀).
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Yeah, being tied to a subscription service or specific cell plan just to use the car and get OTA updates is definitely not green or sustainable. But what is sustainable? Simple wifi or bluetooth internet sharing. I can always share off my phone’s data plan, no matter what cell tech is being used, and I don’t have to upgrade the car’s head unit. It’s absolutely unnecessary to have two separate ones. The car can easily connect to wifi at home for OTA updates and to my phone’s wifi for everything else.
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I figured that large updates would be over wifi like tesla’s; my Hyundai head unit was updated via an USB drive from my home computer and that was an absolute mess.
Chris Anthony has talked several times about the “connected fleet” of Aptera vehicles, so I assume by default that there will be some LTE connectivity built in and I just want the option to use my own.
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I think aptera will just connect to wifi from home in order to update the car (same as tesla) that would be fine. I see no need to buy vehicle specific internet but I am one to talk i just paid $100 for a year of premium connectivity for my model 3.
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Yea I am a cheapskate, Aptera speaks to me at that level, and would love the option.
give me an option:
– remote control of vehicle functions, free for x years, then $5/month
– LTE, $8 month
– Premium package, remote control and LTE, 10$
Lets frugal POS like myself save $5/month by using my own LTE SIM card and they still get their subscription.
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I’m happy to have a $99/year plan like a wearable. Being able to check charge state, location, remote preconditioning, live charger status, control locks/activation/deactivation, etc. whilst I’m out and about is useful to me.
I feel conflicted on things like streaming audio and definitely video though. I’m rather of the opinion that all services are either all onboard and very comprehensive like Tesla with LTE/5G and a price tag to match or, there’s absolutely nothing at all and it needs CarPlay/AndroidAuto to do anything, even navigation. Why? Well, I don’t really want a half-way house with OKish nav, sort of passible streaming but not great, etc. Plus I’d rather that they do an amazing solid CarPlay integration and then move onto other things.
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I haven’t heard anything about the manner in which software updates will be managed for the vehicle. Via cellular network? Would that include maps and recommended routes to destination?
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Definitely over the air updates but I don’t recall if that would require wifi connection or can be done via cellular data. I imagine they will copy tesla which requires wifi to update.
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One approach I have personally used was to download the new software configuration file to a thumb drive, sneaker net the thumb drive to the vehicle, plug the thumb drive into the vehicle, & proceed with the software update from there. I thought was a very workable solution.
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I’ve seen that this has been discussed in a few places but I haven’t found an actual answer and those discussions were over a year old, so maybe there’s new info.
My question is will you be able to drive the Aptera without being connected to the internet at all? I was bragging to a coworker that the Aptera would be my end of the world car, no infrastructure needed (except roads). But then I got to thinking about whether the Aptera would still function in that end of the modern world scenario, would a prolonged internet outage effectively brick the car?
I get being connected, and the point, with updates, data, navigation, entertainment etc. But what if there is no internet available? Or what if you’re going to commit a crime and don’t want anything tracking your location? Hopefully there are end of the world and privacy demand issues involved in the engineering, but with how the modern world is it’s more and more a reality that not being constantly online or tracked is not an option. I’d prefer if my car gave me the option and ability to exist offline. And I definitely don’t want them handing my location data to the cops should I decide to fulfill my lifelong dream of delivering boxes of glittered live hornets to politicians.
We are independent people, we weirdos that will buy a three wheel drive sperm cell. We need to be allowed our independence and privacy to only connect with permission if wanted. Thinking about it is honestly making me consider doing an electric conversion on my old FIAT X1/9 instead. I really don’t like the idea of not being able to drive freely without being monitored (I know my phone does it, but I can leave the phone at home if I want), this big brother stuff doesn’t need to extend to every aspect of our lives.
- This reply was modified 1 year ago by
Jason Hendricks. - This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by
Gabriel Kemeny.
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I live in Australia and regularly drive through mobile dead zones. If being online 24/7 was a requirement road trips would be impossible many countries. I’m hoping a the Aptera does not need a mobile account. It could used WiFi at home and phone data when away.
Steve at the “Aptera owners club” YouTube channel did a scary piece on car data privacy today.
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I 100% agree with you on this. I have a Lightning and delved into the same topic of disabling network connectivity and telematics on the Lightning forum. Let me tell you, the “wElL iF yOu hAvE nOtHiNg tO hIdE, wHy dO yOu cArE?” argument is so tiresome.
I care for several reasons but these are my main two.
1. Privacy and control
This is my vehicle, I paid money for it, I purchased it outright, therefore if I wish for it to no longer be connected to the internet or only want it to connect at certain times and be completely offline at all others, that is my right and should be within my control.
I understand and accept that this may interfere with certain features that require internet connectivity like live traffic monitoring/media/satellite radio, etc, but I don’t care and don’t need those features. If I’d like to live without them and use my vehicle as just a vehicle, I should be able to do that.2. Data Security and Safety
The other argument I always hear is “bUt yOuR pHoNe!” Yeah and my phone is built by a company that specializes in electronics and internet technology and runs software created and maintained by companies with two decades of experience in IT. Does that mean that it’s not collecting data? Of course not, modern smartphones are essentially spy devices that we carry with us. But again you can put your phone in a faraday bag or you can leave it at home.While I certainly have more faith in Aptera than I do Ford as far as data and cybersecurity are concerned, I still am highly uncomfortable with a car company collecting and story potentially highly specific and sensitive location, voice, typing, media and driving meta data for any period of time.
And here’s the thing, if your phone or its data get compromised, what happens? Your phone crashes, your files might get corrupted? Maybe your files are stolen by a ransomware attack or maybe you even have your identity stolen and your bank account compromised. If my EV gets compromised? A virus could cause my vehicle’s battery to enter thermal runaway, it could interfere or even sever my ability to manipulate the vehicle control inputs while at speed and it could even cause my vehicle to perform uncommanded movements leading to a crash that could kill me, my passengers, other drivers or pedestrians. The cost for a cybersecurity breach in a vehicle is far, far higher.
So yes, hopefully it’s as simple as it is on my Lightning and there will be a simple module we can unplug when we want the Aptera to go “offline” and hopefully Aptera is even more transparent about its API when it comes to data connectivity and controls so we have choices in how our data is collected, what is collected and what isn’t.
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Exactly
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In the EU, a company needs a legit reason if they collect and store personal data. So IMO if the lightning was to be sold in that region they would hit legal issues. Obviously it isn’t on sale there (partly because it is unsuitable anyway).
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- This reply was modified 1 year ago by
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Just a note from a Tesla Model 3 owner of 4.5 years with 95 (counted them) software updates.
I use a spreadsheet to track battery charge and efficiency along with other items of interest.
All updates were over WiFi at home, though I think they can push one out over cellular if they so desire. So many new features and improvements were provided free of charge from Sentry Mode to One Pedal Driving and access to the service screen. Love getting these updates from Tesla. Hope Aptera has such a good attitude.
The navigation is via cellular. I pay $10/mo for premium access. Without premium, no traffic congestion data, fewer map features, no streaming music, etc. For me, the $10 is worth it, so I use streaming music all the time to get my monies worth.
I had my car 3 weeks when it totally shutdown after exiting a highway. Called Tesla and they asked where I was. I said you know (I had assumed) and they insisted they couldn’t access it due to privacy. Think what you may about that. I got a Model S to drive while they fixed it.
I am big on privacy, but not as much as some here. My home network has DNS Sinkholes to keep out ads and I often browse using private/incognito mode. As for someone tracking my driving, well I don’t do anything so interesting to be worried about it. With license plate scanners out there and cameras at toll booths, I know I can be tracked out in public.
I would though like an option to disable the cellular connection for say my current drive or some period of time, just have the option. No idea if I’d use it. Just like the idea. Loosing navigation would a bummer.
OTOH, do you have a reasonably modern cell phone? If so, you have a tracker in your pocket and you can be located.
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This is a subject that needs more discussion in the wake of the Mozilla foundation’s finding that every car manufacturer is gathering copious amounts of private data including videos of sex in the backseat every connected vehicle.
(WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 6, 2023) — All 25 major car brands reviewed in Mozilla’s latest edition of *Privacy Not Included (*PNI) received failing marks for consumer privacy, a first in the buyer’s guide’s seven-year history.
According to Mozilla research, popular global brands — including BMW, Ford, Toyota, Tesla, Kia, and Subaru — can collect deeply personal data such as sexual activity, immigration status, race, facial expressions, weight, health and genetic information, and where you drive. Researchers found data is being gathered by sensors, microphones, cameras, and the phones and devices drivers connect to their cars, as well as by car apps, company websites, dealerships, and vehicle telematics. Brands can then share or sell this data to third parties. Car brands can also take much of this data and use it to develop inferences about a driver’s intelligence, abilities, characteristics, preferences, and moreHere is a video from a Denver TV station that explores the topic in a little greater depth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs0fzKbkuWQ
There are two factors in favor of Aptera taking a lead in establishing vehicular data privacy.
First, they’re so small, as a company, with sales that even with an explosion of building, predicted by 2030 means that when laws limiting the data collectors are finally passed, Aptera will have produced fewer than a million vehicles. That not that much data in the scheme of things.
Second is right to repair, which implies the right to improve. I think a vast majority of all drivers would just as soon maximize rather than minimize data privacy up to and including empowering the Aptera owner to block transmission of certain types of data in real time or by choice.
I actually think that Aptera, if it incorporates robust and industry leading privacy controls, may find this quirky difference could generate enormous interest in the brand as it becomes, by definition, the method by which privacy advocates could ‘vote with their feet.’
As I’m sure there are a lot more posters here adept at how one might accomplish the feat of simply allowing the owner to tailor the feed to suit privacy concerns (no video, for instance, or just a data-collected buffer with no data sent in normal operation option.)
We know it will have OTA and I would suggest that options also be built in to allow for bare-bones operating system which developers can license and then sublicense to owners with the third-parties improvements.
The point is there is a ‘privacy advocate’ niche that I suspect could be the sole reason for a million or more vehicles sold. (I figure privacy might be the top concern of five percent of all buyers and while Aptera has greater appeal than just privacy, it would be at the top of the list for this five percent of buyers.)
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Aptera will have limited to NO control over the data collected by software written by others & licensed by Aptera. Your only choice is buy the Aptera as configured or not buy the Aptera. Let us know what you decide.
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The future is now, and now is the time for software defined vehicles. Aptera will have OTA updates, but I’m expecting this to be configurable. From zero connectivity, to full update when your home network is detected. Maybe even hardwire connection from a mobile tech. Since I reside twenty-six miles from Aptera, I could even bring my vehicle in for a factory install.
But I’m with the OP, I just want my car to get me there and back. Internet connection not required or needed.
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Given that Aptera is extremely supportive of its customers, even to the extent of planning to give us the ability to repair our own cars with instructions and parts shipped from the factory, I assume that Aptera will depart from the horrid practice of most manufacturers regarding customer data and respect our privacy instead of seeing us as an opportunity to collect and sell our data to the highest bidder, specifically:
1) Will Aptera refrain from collecting customer data from the car, such as GPS logs, driving stats, telemetry, data from the infotainment system including all of the data vacuumed from the phone when we connect it to the car?
Almost all manufacturers and Google (through Android Auto) have the appalling practice of collecting such data, correlate it with everything they have on us from other sources and then sell the data to marketers and others. There have even been reports of people at other manufacturers factories sharing video of people having sex in their cars that were captured by the onboard “safety” cameras. Apple’s Car Play… I am not quite sure, they seem to be steering towards customer data privacy but I could find no hard data on the matter.
2) Will Aptera give us a way to wipe all car history before we take it to a mechanic?
There have been several reports of mechanics downloading the car’s data and using it for less than legal purposes.
Needless to say, these matters already pushed me to choose a cheap and extremely dumb ICE as my next car (1st quarter 2024). I plan to eventually buy an Aptera but like all new EV models I expect it to be quite reliant on electronics, sensors and data for its day to day operations. Aptera’s policy regarding these matters will be a key determinant as to whether I do or avoid it.
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Based on the latest visit to Aptera HQ by Tailosive. Aptera will not have “built in LTE” but will have a cellular antenna. Aptera’s app will operate through SMS for commands and MMS for data relay. This should keep the connectivity costs super super low…and supposedly it significantly reduces the parasitic drain from waking up a computer to do LTE commands.
Now all I really want to see is what data Aptera actually collects, how they store it, and who they sell it to.
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What data could they collect from SMS/MMS – besides when you used the system and what commands/requests you issued?
In that interview Chris A also said that OTA updates would be done over wifi – which is the preferred method used by Tesla these days, as well.
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I’m not sure about other states, But Californians have the consumer privacy Act, (see link below)
for people outside, they should still have option to “do not sell or sell link”
but I personally think Aptera would not sell our info’s around
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I don’t think there’s a way to completely alleviate these types of concerns other than depend on the devs to offer opt-outs or you go elsewhere in lieu of there software.
Transitioning from writing checks to full online banking was a tough decision, I remember.
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I saw in a video from Taliosive EV that Aptera is planning on using an SMS network to communicate with their mobile app. Is there more info available on how this network works?
Regular SMS does not have basic security features compared to TLS API traffic (the most common way of communicating with mobile apps), so I am wondering if there is something more to the SMS network that Chris mentioned.
IIRC, sensitive information that Chris mentioned might include location, and authorization to unlock/lock the car.
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A 160 character sms text limit using gsm-7 can be used to senvd 131 bytes (128 in practice) of encoded characters (with 7 bytes needed for a binary mode header). They can use symmetric encryption and easily fit any needed control of informational messages. Bluetooth can be used to setup the keys.
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TY, using symmetric encryption/pre-shared key tracks with the context of the conversation in the video (which I believe was on saving power).
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Just FYI, this SMS idea mirrors an aftermarket solution for the Tesla Roadster (OVMS) which was great! It’s near realtime, push messaging model meant that a request to start charging or get status was near instant.
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