Charging Stations

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Charging Stations

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Charging Stations

  • Charging Stations

     Joshua Rosen updated 2 weeks, 1 day ago 14 Members · 28 Posts
  • John Wiley

    Member
    August 28, 2021 at 4:40 pm

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/cnbc-road-test-the-us-ev-charging-network-isnt-ready-for-your-family-road-trip-let-alone-the-expected-wave-of-new-cars.html
    <div>
    </div><div>This article is a commentary on the current state of charging stations in California. For now I would say it underscores 2 points – 1) Sure would be great to gain access to Tesla charging .stations on road trips, and 3) The Aptera range and solar capabilities is a huge advantage over other EVs. I pick the Aptera.
    </div>

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    August 28, 2021 at 4:52 pm

    I sure hope they will be able to strike an agreement with Tesla to use native charging. Tesla is opening up the Supercharger network so that they can get access to the government subsidies. Tesla has a strong incentive to give Aptera a license because that shows that they are truly open. Offering an adapter for CCS cars isn’t really making the network open because it will be so inconvenient. The other thing about a deal with Tesla, Aptera will be forced to fix their charge rate. They have been talking about a lousy 60KW charger, Tesla won’t allow that on the Supercharger network because they don’t want slow charging cars hogging a charger for and hour.

    • Kenneth Bolinsky

      Member
      August 28, 2021 at 6:42 pm

      Actually, Aptera has stated a 50 kW DC charging rate, not 60 kW.

      It has to do with the heat generated during the charging process: The higher the charging rate, the more heat generated. Aptera has no way of actively discarding excess heat when it’s not moving.

      Aptera has also said they’re considering a 3.3 kW (instead of 6.6 kW) onboard AC charger because of the size and weight savings. So an Aptera will charge slowly on both L1 and L2.

      Superchargers can charge at any rate from 0 kW up to their fastest 250 kW rate – we know this because they ramp up from 0 and then begin to ramp down at about 50% SOC. From 50%-80% the average rate of charge is 60 kW – and it continues to ramp down to even lower rates from 80% to 100% SOC.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        August 30, 2021 at 6:36 am

        If they do a 3.3 KW L2 charger I won’t be buying one. The Volt had a 3.3 KW charger and it took over 6 hours to charge it and it had a tiny 14 KWh usable battery, the Aptera will have a 60KWh usable battery. You need to be able to do a full charge over night and that can’t happen at 3.3KW. The 50KW charger is definitely a turn off but I’ve decided it’s not a show stopper because with 500 miles of real world range I don’t anticipate ever needing to do DC charging. The absolute longest of my day trips is 450 miles, it will be able to handle that without charging. Multiday trips will be tolerable as long as you choose hotels with chargers. However if they can’t do more than 50KW DC then they will have to use CCS, Superchargers are out. Tesla has said that they are going to charge substantially more for slow charging cars and they are right to do so. You can’t have a car hogging a charger for an hour, my experience at the Superchargers is that I typically take 15 minutes, that leaves it open for the next guy.

        • John Trotter

          Member
          August 30, 2021 at 5:50 pm

          Clarification. Aptera offers 250/400/600/1000 mile range, roughly 25/40/60/100 kWh. Overnight (12 hours) at 3.3 kW L2 is ok for the first two. 1000 mile range is silly. How many potty breaks is that? Your 600 miles with no charging might indeed be problematic, but L2 chargers are not rare for a top-up during a break. I could see never needing DC charging for my Aptera.

        • Kenneth Bolinsky

          Member
          August 30, 2021 at 10:22 pm

          Chevy advertised Volt’s charging speed on a 32A L2 EVSE as 4.5 hours and 12 hours on a 15A 110 V wall outlet. My Clarity PHEV has a 6.6 kW onboard charger and a 17 kWh (13 usable) battery: On a 32A L2 EVSE it takes 2.5 hours and 12 hours on a 15A 110 V wall outlet. What were you using to charge your Volt?

          • Joshua Rosen

            Member
            September 1, 2021 at 6:58 am

            The Volt had a 16A charger, in it’s last model year they put in a 32A charger but they only sold that version for a few months before they killed the car.

            • Kenneth Bolinsky

              Member
              September 2, 2021 at 7:13 am

              The numbers I quoted were from using an external EVSE for L2 charging, not the car’s granny cable, and using that cable plugged into a 110V wall outlet for L1, using the granny cable. I found them on the Chevy website.

            • Joshua Rosen

              Member
              September 3, 2021 at 9:26 am

              The built in charger on the Volt was 16A for most of it’s life, they upped it to 32A at the very end but that version was only available for about 4 months before they killed the car. I had a 2017 it charged at 3.3KW using my 32A ClipperCreek EVSE. The supplied portable EVSE on the Volt was Level 1 not Level 2, that would take 19 hours to charge.

      • Timothy Kerssen

        Member
        August 30, 2021 at 6:40 pm

        “no way of actively discarding excess heat when it’s not moving”. This is certainly a problem. However, it’s also true that aerodynamic efficiency is not critical when not moving. Has Aptera considered the idea of a panel that opens, or a fan that pops out to blow air over the skin when charging? It would be a small weight penalty to help solve what seems to be a deal-breaker for some.

      • Jose Torre-Bueno

        Member
        September 2, 2021 at 2:02 pm

        Can you clarify that the 50kW DC is via a CCS connector and the 3.3kW is via a standard 120V AC cord?

      • Harry Parker Parker

        Moderator
        September 3, 2021 at 7:07 am

        Ken, you wrote, “Aptera has no way of actively discarding excess heat when it’s not moving.”

        I think you underestimate Aptera’s cooling system potential.

        The Aptera has radiative surfaces on the belly, sides and roof of the vehicle, pumping cooling liquid to all those skins. In addition they have a fan driven exhaust vent in the rear of the vehicle. Even if 50KW charging is only 90% efficient, that means they need to radiate just 10%, 5 KW of heat, spread over much of the surface area of the car. I estimate that radiative surface area to be over 8 square meters, so well less than a KW per m^2.

        • Gabe Kemeny

          Member
          September 3, 2021 at 7:37 am

          @Harry Parker I believe it’s only the belly that has the cooling surface.

          • Harry Parker Parker

            Moderator
            September 3, 2021 at 8:09 am

            The cooling is in all the places I mentioned based on what I’ve read and heard directly from the folks at Aptera.

            Steve Fambro mentioned in the first video describing Aptera’s patented cooling system about sometimes being able to see condensation patterns in the morning on the side of the Aptera in the shape of the capillaries, while pointing to behind the driver’s door.

            In another discussion someone mentioned how the solar panels on the roof gained extra efficiency by being cooled by those capillaries in the roof’s skin. Those solar panels may not contribuute to charging the battery while the Aptera is being DC fast charged. In that case some of the heat may also be radiated through the roof as well.

            Of course the final design may be modified based on the extreme performance testing in the coming months.

    • Fanfare 100

      Member
      August 29, 2021 at 8:44 pm

      At this point wouldn’t an “agreement’ become moot as Tesla has made the decision to open up its SuperCharging facilities to all EVs.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        August 30, 2021 at 6:42 am

        That’s with an adapter. They are counting on the fact that nobody is going to want to use a clunky adapter. The Superchargers are being “opened” so that Tesla can get government subsidies, if it keeps them closed then they’ll be competing with subsidized chargers without receiving the same subsidy. The CHADeMO adapter for Tesla’s is $450, expect the Tesla adapter for CCS to be about the same, that will limit the number of CCS cars that use Superchargers. A native Tesla connector is different, that will make Superchargers truly accessible. However as I mentioned in another post on this thread it won’t be permitted if the car only charges at 50KW. 50KW cars would cripple the Supercharger network.

        • Fanfare 100

          Member
          August 30, 2021 at 12:52 pm

          Thank you for your response. Makes sense, except I don;t understand how 50kW vehicles would cripple the Supercharger network. They would consume a smaller load. And in the case of the Aptera, 50kW would charge the vehicle much faster than to any other vehicle so it would be in and out in nothing flat.

          • John Trotter

            Member
            August 30, 2021 at 5:54 pm

            Correct. It’s not the kWs per hour that matter, it’s the miles added per hour charging. Aptera actually does pretty good by that measure, better than an older Tesla for sure!

            • Joshua Rosen

              Member
              September 1, 2021 at 7:06 am

              It’s not the miles per minute that matters it’s the 20-80% time that’s important. Miles/minute is only significant when you are topping up the car which will hardly happen with the Aptera because it has enough range to do the whole journey without charging. With EVs that have 200-300 miles of usable range you do top ups of a 100-150 miles, with a Tesla that’s about 15 minutes. The Aptera has a 600 mile range, doing more than 500 miles in a day is very infrequent, that’s a lot of driving. The typical fast charging use case for an Aptera will be doing a 20-80 fill up by people who either don’t have home charging or who are doing multiday road trips and are staying at cheap hotels that don’t have destination chargers.

  • Dan Stevens

    Member
    August 30, 2021 at 7:54 am

    I really don’t understand this argument.

    15 minutes of supercharging your Tesla will net you 150KW charge rate / 4 (15 min) * 4 m/KW = 150 miles range added, sort of at best.

    15 minutes of charging an Aptera will net you 50KW charge rate / 4 (15 min) * 10 m/KW = 125 miles added.

    Not that much of a difference and reality is, most Teslas don’t charge at 150KW rate when adding 150 miles, making the charge times reasonably equal for the same mileage.

    Now, faster is always good. That I can agree with, but if your Tesla charges fast enough, Aptera is close to the same effective rate.

    A 3.3KW charger would be a deal breaker for me. This destroys the concept of charging overnight and effectively ruins public level 2 charging. Yes, I would get enough range for day to day driving, but at some point, an additional pound or 2 ( or 10 ) is a better tradeoff. This is one of those times.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      August 30, 2021 at 1:01 pm

      I am amused that some of the people that post on the forum would so readily give up the overall advantages of an Aptera for some at present, potential minor inconveniences. And that without having driven one. To each his own of course. I think a little like “Cutting of your nose to spite your face” as my grandmother would tell me.

      I am more than anxious to give up my Model 3 and its “Fast charging” for an Aptera in its currently engineered configuration

  • rich garlick

    Member
    August 30, 2021 at 5:53 pm

    Aptera….please offer the 6.6 kW charger. not everyone is retired and can wait 24 hrs. to drive their car. at the very least, offer it as an option. i understand the desire for efficiency and to cut weight but the vehicle is useless as a daily driver without 6.6 kW charging. i too will not be going forward with this vehicle without “sane” levels of recharging. the whole point of buying this car is to not have to play the daily “charging” game. my daily commute is lengthy and I’m NOT independently wealthy like most Tesla owners. thanks for making a vehicle that makes “SENSE”. sadly 3.3 kW makes zero sense.

  • Richard Palmisano

    Member
    August 31, 2021 at 5:12 am

    50kw charging?

    Nope. Not a good idea. Weight is always a key factor for sure, but range and charging are always at the top of the list. Range doesn’t seem to be an issue ( per their specs ) but charging is fueling and fueling allows you to range further.

    Add to the concept that if they want to use the Super Charging Network, it would be best to get closer to the maximum level of that network.

    C’mon guys. This isn’t even a question for a daily commuter. It’s a negative.

    • Dan Stevens

      Member
      August 31, 2021 at 10:06 am

      Lets take a practical look at this. While I’m on the side of ‘faster is better’, at some point, this isn’t always true in reality.

      Lets compare driving a Tesla Model Y (320’ish miles range) to a 600 mile Aptera to get me from home to Disneyland, a 364 mile drive. This is reality for me, I do this once a year or more. Using ABetterRoutePlanner for reference, the software puts me stopping twice in my Tesla for a total of 25 minutes, arriving with a 10% SOC.

      In the Aptera, I could make it without charging, but if I wanted to stop for a leg stretch, bathroom break, it would be less then the 25 minutes in total and I could charge a bit for safety / buffer.

      Win: Aptera (I can’t speak to the comfort of the drive, just getting there)

      Now, lets say I wanted to do frequent longer trips. I’m going to take my Tesla to South Dakota next month, I’ll use that as an example. I’m going to use the 1000 mile Aptera for this, because if I’m making frequent long trips, this is what I would have and its still cheaper than my Model Y.

      Going to Rapid City SD it is a total of 1404 miles (according to abrp).

      Tesla: Miles 1404 Total time: 24 hours 26 minutes of which 3 hours 27 minutes is charging in 12 stops.

      Aptera: Miles 1515 Total time: 24 hours 59 minutes of which 2 hours 19 minutes is charging in 3 stops.

      If the software did the same route, the Aptera would have won handily, even on this longer drive. It added over 100 miles to pick up a charger though, something I think could be avoided, but we’ll go with that.

      Win: Depends on what you are looking at. Total time is pretty close. Charging time is much less (about 2/3rds) with Aptera so if the mileage was the same, I would arrive earlier with the Aptera.

      Since Tesla is opening their supercharger network (and more CCS charges are being installed rapidly), the Aptera will be the clear winner on this.

      Now, you might say, but I want to drive more than 1400 miles in a day to which I say, “Please Don’t”. Get some rest, charge while you are sleeping.

      You could say, “But the Model S gets better range, fewer stops” and this might be true, but I could buy several Apteras for that money.

      Now, 50KW charging sounds slow, but with the increased efficiency it is actually much better in real life examples.

  • Robert Klasson

    Member
    August 31, 2021 at 9:15 am

    DCFC speed is irrelevant to me since my sources for charging will probably look something like this:

    – Solar: 60%

    – L1: 30%

    – L2: 9.5%

    – DCFC: 0.5%

    Good L2 speeds would be my priority since thats propably where a slow charge rate would cost me the most time total. Hopefully they can find an OBC that supports both L1 and L2 so you get L1 for free (weight wise).

    • Kenneth Bolinsky

      Member
      September 1, 2021 at 8:18 am

      All on-board AC chargers support both L1 and L2 – and some EVs (like Tesla) ship with dual-voltage charging cables.

    • Robert Klasson

      Member
      September 3, 2021 at 1:15 am

      Perhaps, but I was hoping Aptera would go with a standard extension cable or similar for L1 charging and not a clunky and expensive granny charger like most EVs use today. Seems like that would require some extra hardware in the car for the charger to not pull the full 32 A from an ordinary wall outlet.

  • Gabe Kemeny

    Member
    August 31, 2021 at 10:10 am

    Isn’t it amazing at the number of folks who think they can design and run Aptera better than the current team?

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