Battery chemistry, LiOn, LFP?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery chemistry, LiOn, LFP?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery chemistry, LiOn, LFP?

  • Battery chemistry, LiOn, LFP?

     Curtis Cibinel updated 2 weeks ago 8 Members · 15 Posts
  • DON RASKY

    Member
    November 19, 2021 at 7:30 am

    Does anyone know what the battery chemistry is in the Aptera? Are there any plans to explore LFP cells for the Aptera? I’m presuming the cells are 2170 LiOn and not LFP. I’ve heard from various YouTube videos that LFP cells can fully charge and nearly fully discharge without degrading.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    November 19, 2021 at 7:55 am

    Just returned from my trip to BYD in China the “Parent” of LFP Blade Batteries. The LFPs are more rugged as described in your post. Also less likely to catch fire. Also less expensive than LiOn and less consumption of more rare materials. The drawback is that they are not suitable for high miles per charge for some of the higher mileage Aptera configurations.

    There were a number of Chinese and European EV makers there interested in LFP batteries as they are suitable for both the Chinese and Euro markets with their urban environments and generally shorter driving distances. Tesla is also interested in LFP for their shorter distance vehicles.

    Curtis Cibinel, an astute engineer, has posts on this forum for the LFP batteries. If interested in this technology you should read them

    And yes, Aptera, at this point has elected for the 2170 LiOn batteries. I doubt that will change this close to production as a change would delay production this late in the development cycle

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      November 19, 2021 at 8:37 am

      John

      Did BYD give you information about the durability of LFPs? I’ve seen claims that they last several times as long as nickel batteries but you’ve just had a chance to get the info from the horses mouth.

      Slower degradation rates and the ability to charge to 100% makes up for a lot of the energy density differences. My Model 3 AWD is two years old, the range is now down to just under 280 miles vs 310 when new, at 90% that’s only 250 miles. The RWD Model 3s with LFP batteries range is 267, when it’s two years old it will likely still have more range than my M3 assuming that the durability claims are correct.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        November 19, 2021 at 11:05 am

        Joshua, I have a lot of information on the LFP batteries. Most however is proprietary and will stay so until BYD releases it publicly. I would say in general, that the information you site on the benefits of the current editions and especially the near future editions are understated.

        I too have a Model 3 with deteriorating battery range. Somewhat aggravating. I agree with you that the lower miles per charge are overcome by the ruggedness, cost, and afety, of the LFP battery, at least for me it is a better tradeoff. I use my Tesla mostly for shorter commuting distances and not long trips as I will for my Aptera.

        I am an engineer type person so more practical and not so much enamored by flash and glitz or exaggerated claims. So I would guess that my preference above would not be popular among this forum or Aptera fans in general.

        I could say that there is a reasonably high probability that Tesla will bite the bullet and manufacture/use LFPs in their shorter range vehicles (U.S., China, and Euro) where it is more suitable for the shorter drives) if the right arrangement for intellectual property can be worked out. Of course, China and Europe are the two biggest EV markets right now. Larger production volume will lower the price of LFPs as well over time.

    • Lou Verner

      Member
      November 19, 2021 at 8:42 am

      Welcome back John! Looking forward to hearing more about your trip. Any chance you could provide us with some sort of summary – perhaps in a new Forum Discussion thread? Thanks in advance.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        November 19, 2021 at 11:13 am

        Thanks Lou. Good to be back. I will do so but not for a while. I need to adjust to the time change and have a ton of analysis and reports t do for my client and am on a tight schedule.

        • Lou Verner

          Member
          November 19, 2021 at 11:20 am

          But of course, and coming holidays thrown in as well. I look forward to it whenever that happens to be!

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    November 19, 2021 at 9:25 am

    Welcome back John. Hope you had a good trip.

    Just a quick correction: I am not an engineer. I’m a software developer which watches a lot of YouTube and many people I talk to regularly are engineers, mechanics, electricians etc (multiday hikes are great times to learn). I consider myself fairly educated but am not an engineer.

    I completely agree it’s a path to Aptera should explore for shorter ranges options long term (2-3 years). One nice element is this keeps the suspension variants down (potentially from 4 to 2 if the 250/400 use LFP); batteries are really heavy. The advantages are great and honestly I struggle to see practical use for over 600 miles range apart from grabbing headlines. Lfp generally is big prismatic pouches (or the blade) rather than cylinders with coolant. This advantage is why the pack has energy density of LFP isn’t as poor as the cell. Aptera’s battery storage space isn’t a large rectangle under the car so the LFP pack design for LFP won’t be as simple. I was suprised to see that BYD does sell the blade to manufacturers but unless they make different lengths it might be really hard to engineer into the aptera’s physical spaces.

    Ps: I’m really interested to see how the Aptera pack is designed as they release more official info or we see teardown as they ship. The graphics we have are obviosly oversimplified.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      November 19, 2021 at 11:16 am

      Curtis, you fooled me! You think and sound like an engineer. I think you need to come out of the closet and admit you are an engineer at heart. Actually you are. Yo are a software engineer. I will grant engineering credit for that!!

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    November 19, 2021 at 10:23 am

    LFP batteries ARE lithium ion batteries: They just use iron phosphate instead of, say nickel, aluminum, cobalt and manganese (or some combination thereof).

    • John Malcom

      Member
      November 19, 2021 at 11:21 am

      Disagree. they are not what we consider “Traditional” Lithium Ion Batteries. They stopped being that when started using iron phosphate and eschewed nickel, aluminum, cobalt, and manganese or some combination of the above and there characteristics regarding range per charge, robustness, and safety became so different than “Traditional” Lithium Ion batteries

  • Steven G. Bueche

    Member
    November 19, 2021 at 4:27 pm

    When our first M3SR was going to be delayed (Aug 21) we were offered a LFP battery version that we could get sooner. We were informed from Tesla that they would be more sensitive to the hot and cold, could stay at 100% charge but to not fast charge them too many times at any one point and that we’d get 10 less range than the 2170 batteries.

    Luckily our first car became available and we stayed with the 2170’s. Took delivery Sept 7 just as the price jumps took effect. We keep it between 20% – 90% and haven’t had any issues for the first 1000+ miles. We’re not long trip takers anymore and it seems to fit our needs. Even at 62 I still get a kick out of the UFO sound it makes when backing up.

    But, the Aptera makes my heart beat faster every time I see it. Most of my family hate the looks of the Aptera but I’m not buying it for them.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    November 23, 2021 at 7:45 am

    Bjorn just released a video about the made in China Model 3 SR+ with LFP batteries in winter (Bjorn lives in Norway where the temp was around freezing). When he arrived at a fast charger with a cold battery the charging rate was awful, 13KW, and it didn’t get better with time. Tesla isn’t heating the batteries very fast when the car isn’t driving. He then took a short trip with a Supercharger plugged in as the destination which turned on the preconditioning which heats the batteries. That was a lot more effective, when he got back to a fast charger he was able to charge at 90KW.

    Aptera is using nickel cobalt batteries in the first iteration so winter charging won’t be an issue however if they ever do add an LFP option they will need to make sure that they have an effective battery heating system so that the cars will work in winter.

    • Peter Jorgensen

      Member
      November 23, 2021 at 8:59 am

      Yes. It’s also extremely important to be able to pre-heat your battery regardless of chemistry.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      November 23, 2021 at 9:53 am

      This is essentially a software problem. LFP batteries have a very flat voltage curve and different heating/cooling requirements. Realistically given the smaller engineering team for Aptera its probably a good thing to make things simpler with NCA.

      LFP for Aptera will make sense but the engineering details are tricky and good preconditioning is essential. I suspect we will see LFP in 2-3 years after the initial release.

Viewing 1 - 6 of 6 replies

or to reply.

Original Post
0 of 0 posts June 2018
Now