(V2V), (V2G), (V2H) and (V2L) info

[kerbe2705]

The version of the CCS charging standard that’s used in North America isn’t expected to include V2G capability until at least 2025. At present the only V2G system uses the ChaDeMo format.

There is talk of some vehicles being able to output 110V AC current which would allow them to be used like small emergency generators for relatively light loads – but not for connection to the power grid.

[joshua-rosen]

I hope they don’t waste anytime on this feature, they have so much to do and so little capital and staff to do it that a distraction like V2H could kill them. If you want backup for your house there are two better choices, a propane generator (I I have as 20KW Kohler) or solar panels and a power wall. My Kohler can power my house for almost a week with the two tanks that I have and if the outage goes longer I can have the tanks refilled. I got it after having two five day outages in a particularly bad winter several years ago. If you live in an area which gets a lot of sun then solar is a good solution, it will pay for itself eventually and it makes you independent of grid failures. I wouldn’t want to power my house from my car, I want to be able to go somewhere during a power outage and a drained battery makes that impossible. Also disconnecting the car to go somewhere will remove power from your furnace. It’s the lack of heat that makes power outages so uncomfortable.

[harry-parker]

The only thing close to V2G planned for the first Aptera is an AC inverter and power socket to give you 120 volt 60 Hz power from the Aptera. That’s no V2G; More of a V2H or V2X capability.

As of a few months ago they were still researching inverter vendors and deciding on the specs. Don’t expect more than 1500 watts capability from their builtin inverter; the same as a standard household outlet. So you could power some tools or a fridge or a small microwave, or even charge another EV at Level 1.

[joshua-rosen]

I don’t see any reason for a car like an Aptera to support V2V. It makes sense in the F150 Lightning and the F150 hybrid because pickup trucks are used as tow trucks. AAA is going to need to have a means of charging stranded EVs at some point just as they bring gas to stranded ICEVs today. AAA is not going to be using anything like an Aptera.

As for V2H, maybe. V2H will require the installation of an automatic transfer switch and that’s a large fraction of the cost of a home backup system. I installed a 20KW Kohler generator several years ago, the whole job cost me in the neighborhood of $12K. The generator was only about $5K of that, the rest was the installation, transfer switch, housing and permits. V2H from a car would save you the cost of the generator and generator housing but the remaining costs would be the same. If you are going to spend that kind of money you might as well spend some more and get a robust solution. I can ride out a nearly week long outage with the two propane tanks that I have, and if the outage were to go longer I can always get the tanks refilled. If I were younger and lived in a sunnier part of the country I would have put in a solar system with powerwalls, that’s a lot more expensive than a generator but there is a long term return on investment assuming that you have the time to recoup your investment.

[ray-holan]

I would welcome a V2H feature in the Aptera. Anyone have any updates on whether this is planned for short term or relegated to version 2.0?

[matthew-huszarik]

In my opinion along with the Aptera’s range a reasonable ability to use the Aptera to provide 120/240v AC @ about 5kw would be a killer application. The inverter doesn’t even have to be on board it could be mobile just take it with you when you need it. Uses, back up power at home, power when away from AC camping at the beach ect, giving another BEV a enough juice to get to a charger, running 120/240v appliances and tools from your Aptera.

With a little software you could even plug it in your home solar to minimize your utility bills as net metering goes away.

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by  Matthew Huszarik. Reason: Check email replies
• This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[curtis-cibinel]

A 12V AC inverter is a heavy and expensive piece of hardware. A 5000W unit is probably about ~$800 / 20lb. These work off 12V DC so I’m not sure if the vehicle would have a enough 12V capacity to provide this or if another converter would be needed. Ideally the vehicle could deliver adequate 12V DC then people that want this feature can buy an inverter sized to their needs. With a focus on efficiency and price I really don’t see why this needs to be builtin if an adequate DC port can be provided. If you need extra hardware to step down from 400V it might be a safety hazard to externalize it so not sure if this is a practical approach.

[grauss-thierry]

A V2G inverter doesn’t work from 12V but from the high voltage battery, so 400V DC to 120V or 240V DC. The current is much smaller.

This is 400V/13A and 240V/21A.

[curtis-cibinel]

If its a dedicated device built in then yes; But if they want to provide a port which can safely have a device such as this plugged in they need to lower the voltage to 12V first.

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/energizer-1500-watt-12v-dc-to-120v-ac-power-inverter/1001281866

[grauss-thierry]

I think that a 5kW inverter would be cheaper if it was integrated inside the Aptera as it would work from the high-voltage battery and then with lower currents.

Also it is not that expensive. My new EV (while waiting for the Apera to come to France) is a MG ZS with 70kWh battery. It comes with a 2.5kW inverter for V2L and this EV is one of the cheapest EV with over 400km WLTP range.

So I guess that it should not be a problem to integrate a 5kW inverter inside the Aptera.

I hope that they will do this at least for the later Aptera when it will be released in Europe.

[stphane-hari]

Hi, I already post something related to your suggestion but under “which option do you want?”, but don’t know how to link to it here…

Me too in France, I have a MG ZS EV 70KWh with this V2L option (max 3kW)… and I use it a lot… I also modified the electrical installation of my house to use the V2L as a backup source and to power some of the appliances, plugs and lights of the house in case of main power cut. It is working nicely!

So yes a V2L, V2H or what ever the name we give to it, is a must have option!

[kerbe2705]

Would Aptera require a second inverter for this purpose? The on-board charger is just an inverter and aren’t inverters inherently bidirectional, given the appropriate circuitry and control? If so, Aptera will already have either a 3.3 or 6.6 kW inverter built in. The external power port that ships with the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 is just a J1772p-to-NEMA 5-15r adaptor…

[Russell]

The Aptera already has at least one fully capable inverter built in, probably two since each front wheel motor can be powered independently. Would it take a lot of hardware/software/engineering to tap into the 3-phase AC output from the motor drive inverter and sync it to typical house current?

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by  Russell Fauver.
• This reply was modified 2 years ago by  Russell Fauver.
• This reply was modified 2 years ago by  Russell Fauver. Reason: Grammar

[nolan-parsons]

Has there been talk of being able to use the battery and solar charge for other things?

If my math is right a full solar pack generates up to 4kW a day under ideal conditions, not enough to power a house but certainly some appliances on an extension cord with a multi plug when the lights go out or you’re camping. Perhaps when you’re aptera is fully charges it could even be possible to redirect the excess solar energy generated into the grid and take a good 10 to 20 dollars off your monthly home electricity bill.

[alain-chuzel]

I wish I can tell you where you’ll find the answer but there certainly has been some “chatter” about “vehicle to load”, “vehicle to grid” and “vehicle to home” on this forum. Hopefully someone else can point you in the right direction.

BTW, I’m not sure what you mean by “…a full solar pack generates up to 4kW a day…”(?) I suspect you meant that Aptera with “full solar” can generate up to on the order of 4kW-Hrs of ENERGY a day with it’s nominally 700 watt peak POWER solar array. Energy and Power are different things.

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by  Alain Chuzel.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[Elzo]

Any thoughts on V2L and V2G adapters. On the campsite and in case of black outs….

This for example would be great in an aptera….

• This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by  Elzo Stubbe. Reason: extra V2L adapter
• This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[gary-greenway]

V2L is really easy. As long as the vehicle charger is bi-directional, you’ll be able to buy a plug in CCS inverter on Amazon. V2G is a lot harder. It requires a high power inverter that can sync to grid voltage and frequency. That box would best be something external to the car because it will be heavy, expensive, bulky, and produce heat. Everyone that uses that is likely to have differing needs and capacities. Once again, as long as the vehicle charger is bi-directional, you’ll be able to plug in an external V2G inverter too

• This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by  Gary Greenway.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[jonathan-reni]

I noticed a comment in a video about using a hot plate when camping, which suggests there will be at least one power outlet on the Aptera. Has anyone seen more information on this?

[john-malcom]

A 110 volt outlet is planned

[jeoffrey-wolens]

Curious as to what can be done when the battery is fully charged? Can you use the Aptera battery to charge other devices or be used to power appliances? I know some EVs have this functionality (use battery to power other devices) but with the built in solar panels, it seems like some one has probably already thought of this scenario. I doubt that enough power is generated to make it worth sending the extra power generated to the grid, but that would be cool.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by  bbelcamino.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[kirk-robbins]

At 80% state of charge there should be unused solar available for running or charging other devices from pure solar without effecting the remaining 20% of charging. My plan is to add 200w of solar anytime the car isn’t moving. The panels I use will take up almost no storage space and add only 3 or 4 pounds.

[martin-boyd]

I’d like to propose a new feature for Aptera. I’d like to see all EVs eventually do this. Hopefully, Aptera will lead the way. With Vehicle-To-Grid (V2G) technology EVs have the potential to offer stability to the power grid during peak demand periods. Can Aptera partner with a company that will facilitate joining or creating Virtual Power Plants (VPP) wherever there’s a concentration of enough Aptera EVs within a power grid region? It’ll help ensure Aptera owners are maximizing their impact for a more sustainable future through more efficient transportation and clean energy.  Thoughts??

[Shawgrin]

How many cycles would a VTG actually consume a year? Depends on where you live, but most would not add complete cycles. If most electric vehicles in the black out area participate then the vehicles would use only a small percent, especially vehicles with larger batteries (ie. hummer). As we go to renewable resources we could see a point in the near future that VTG is normal place.

[curtis-cibinel]

The electrical equipment to feed power to the grid and software to control it are expensive. Ford includes the charger with their larger F150 lightning battery but the installation and hookup equipment is still very expensive (~$10,000). Between that, relatively small battery size, size of the company and NMC it just doesn’t make sense. Aptera is not big enough to divert R&D budget to solving all the challenges and regulatory hurdles of V2G.

In 5 years if everything is technically solved, cheaper and standardized with Aptera producing 50,000+ vehicles per year or more (hopefully many with LFMP or similar) then it may make sense but not now.

[kylen-ryan]

Is there any word of the aptera being able to power a home or just sell back excess energy to the grid

[harry-parker]

Kylan, yes several questions were answered this week during the factory tour and Gamma prototype reveal.

They earlier said they are planning to have an inverter providing AC 120 volt power to an ordinary household 15 amp outlet. That’s enough to power a single appliance like a microwave oven or a fridge, but not a whole house, nor output to the grid.

Any higher power return remains a future possibility, perhaps as a 3rd party add-on. The only products on the market currently used to sell electricity back to the grid from home batteries cost thousands of dollars. Perhaps one could be adapted to Aptera’s open design.

[robeen-sen]

Will I be able to use the vehicle as power wall to power up the house?

[jonah-jorgenson]

No. There will be no V2H functionality in the production Aptera for any of the battery options.