Aptera Charging Habits/Best Practices?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Aptera Charging Habits/Best Practices?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Aptera Charging Habits/Best Practices?

  • Aptera Charging Habits/Best Practices?

  • DON RASKY

    Member
    November 17, 2021 at 5:49 pm

    What are best practices for charging and/or maintaining charge in the Aptera 2170 battery packs? Will daily charging/topping off with 110v/220v over night degrade the battery and reduce its useful range? I frequently hear that the 2170 packs in Tesla BEV’s should not be allowed to get below 20% or above 80% state of charge and that the best way to maintain battery longevity is to keep the 2170 packs plugged in and charging from 110v/220v but still to not allow a greater than 80% state of charge. I intend to use the Aptera for commuting to/from San Diego 140 miles and/or LA/LAX area 240 miles daily and for visiting friends in Wisconsin and/or around the greater southwestern United States. Maintaining maximum battery and vehicle longevity and maximum available range are very important to me.

  • Peter Jorgensen

    Member
    November 17, 2021 at 8:23 pm

    First EV?

    I expect there will be a charge limit setting to limit charging at home. Almost all EVs have it. Keep it between 20-80%. If you’re going on a big trip run it to 100% right before you leave. It is good to do occasionally on some packs to balance cells. But for normal use stay 20-80%.

    I’d say if you have a non-solar EV charge to 80%. With solar charge to 60% so solar has some room to charge up more.

    Here’s what it looks like in my Kia Niro EV. (300 mile Li-Ion battery)

    • Lou Verner

      Member
      November 17, 2021 at 8:53 pm

      If it’s correct that all EVs are best kept in the 20-80% charge range, it really makes one realize that the EPA range estimates are very misleading. Most out now or coming next year are listing 250-300 mile ranges (even best Tesla Model S only around 400). If you multiply by 60% to get usable range, we’re now looking at 150-180 miles (240 for Model S). That’s going to come as a shock to most considering switching to an EV when range anxiety remains one of their biggest concerns. Even I thought getting a 600 mile AWD Aptera (which will cut down range 10%) would safely allow me to travel 450 miles w/o recharging. Whoops! Didn’t want to shell out the considerable extra cost for 1000 mile range, but if that’s really more like 600 mile range, may have to swallow that bullet.

      • Peter Jorgensen

        Member
        November 17, 2021 at 9:10 pm

        Yes but that’s still 2-3 hours of highway driving. In my experience 239 miles of rated range (300 real life) is plenty for highway trips in the western US. That’s 20 minute stops and 2 hours between chargers. If you hit the charger at 20% and leave at 65% it goes fastest. As a road tripping non-tesla EV owner in Utah/Colorado/Idaho, 300 is adequate for interstate travel. Far off the beaten path requires staying at a hotel or campground with 240V right now, but in 3 years shouldn’t be an issue. I’d love to have 600 miles of range. I don’t think 1000 is worth it.

        • Lou Verner

          Member
          November 17, 2021 at 10:06 pm

          Peter, here’s my dilemma. I make 6-8 trips/yr between my home here in VA (NE of Richmond) and Hendersonville, NC. Distance 440 miles. Eating packed lunch on the way, I currently drive straight thru in 7-7 1/2 hrs with one 5 min pit stop in my Prius (Range 550 miles). I’d like to duplicate that in my Aptera. I’ve never had problem doing 500-600 miles/day on vacations and in fact a friend and I covered over 1500 miles of interstate travel in 2 day last year. Sounds like I’ll have to give that sort of long-distance travel a “rest”!

          • kerbe2705

            Member
            November 22, 2021 at 10:00 pm

            ABRP says the 390 mile trip from Richmond to Hendersonville in a 600 Aptera will take six and a half hours with one 15 minute charging stop in Hillsborough, NC. Your extra 50 miles might require a different or longer charging stop.

          • Peter Jorgensen

            Member
            November 23, 2021 at 7:45 am

            You won’t have to give it a rest. If anything you’ll find yourself doing TONS of long trips because it feels so “free”. Tesla owners have this problem – especially the ones with free supercharging. If I didn’t have a lease that counts miles I would be driving everywhere with the Niro EV…

            If you figure 9 mi/kwh for highway speeds, you can drive that route straight through with no problems with a 600 mile Aptera. This takes 6 hours and 9 minutes and you arrive at 23 percent.

            If you figure 7 mi/kwh, worst case, for winter weather, highway speeds, and the offroad kit, you stop and charge for 17 minutes in Greensboro. The whole trip takes 6 hours and 30 minutes.

            What is the big concern with stopping for 15 minutes to charge if needed at one of the 12 fast chargers along your route?

        • Robert Klasson

          Member
          November 18, 2021 at 1:15 am

          I would expect you to be able to duplicate that in a 600 mile Aptera if you plan ahead. Charging it to reach 100% SOC just before you leave and arranging so you can plug in when you arrive should have minimum impact on battery health if done less than once a month. Theoretically you should arrive with more than 20% SOC if you start at 100%.

          We drive a Zoe since three years back, and it lacks the ability to limit how much you charge, so we always charge to 100%. We haven’t seen any noticable battery degradation yet, and it has over 54 000 miles on the meter.

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        November 17, 2021 at 10:02 pm

        Really hoping to eventually see lfp in the aptera. This really simplifies things as they happily go 0-100. Due to the lower density they won’t get 1000 miles but for the shorter ranges it’s cheaper and superior.

    • DON RASKY

      Member
      November 18, 2021 at 11:46 am

      Yep. This will be my first EV. I’m a diesel guy that needs an affordable alternative for commuting and leisure travel. While I love my Chevy Colorado diesel (30 to 40+ MPG highway/interstate) I want to be able to do what I have done for most of the past forty years of my adult life which is to go where and when I want without needing to take out a bank loan just to treat my incurable wander lust. I LOVE THE CONCEPT AND PRACTICALITY OF THE APTERA. While I can afford my current transportation, to travel 30 to 40 miles without plugging in and to have instant torque would be positively dreamy. Also, in my hopeful retirement plan, I would like to travel. While I am sure that taxes will eventually be tied to mileage for electric transport, it will likely not get to be too painful for the most efficient transportation. And since it will require some sort of local, state, or federal requirement to boost taxes on electricity used for transport, we at least have a chance of voting someone out of office if they put the screws to us too badly. Thank you and everyone on this thread for so much useful information. I like to research, to learn, to understand, and then plan major transitions and new paths in life and this is the first practical and affordable BEV I have seen over the past 20 years. Again, many thanks to all!

      • Peter Jorgensen

        Member
        November 23, 2021 at 7:47 am

        Don, your wanderlust will get a lot worse with an Aptera once you start doing road trips. Or any EV for that matter… It’s addicting and it feels so free and easy to do. No fuel burned, just silent cruising around anywhere you want. Just type in where you want to go and it tells you where to stop.

  • Lou Verner

    Member
    November 18, 2021 at 1:59 am

    Thanks Robert, that’s encouraging news! Will implement that technique on maiden VA-NC voyage. By then I should have some decent data on actual battery efficiency garnered from shorter interstate travel.

  • Robert Klasson

    Member
    November 18, 2021 at 6:37 am

    I’ll have to make a reservation to my claim. Very cold (below freezing) or very hot weather may cause the range of a 600 mile Aptera drop perilously close to the 440 mile range you need. Our Zoe gets 20% less range in winter. A 600 mile Aptera would get 480 miles of range in winter if the relationship between power requirements for heating and propulsion are similar.

    • Lou Verner

      Member
      November 18, 2021 at 11:20 am

      And that’s not counting the hit I know I’m taking with AWD (-10% = 540 mile range) and Off-road package (another -10%? = 486)…so, yup, any other subtractions based on temperature or speed will most definitely put me in for at least one charge. Hoping I’ll be able to charge at Tesla charging station as I’m already aware of two that would work in terms of their location.

      • DON RASKY

        Member
        November 22, 2021 at 12:36 pm

        Planning for my first EV is definitely VERY different than planning for my first and second diesel powered vehicles. Looks like I’m likely to have to constrain any Aptera I purchase to commuting and near regional exploration 300 miles or less round trip from my 92595 US ZipCode and to save the diesel for when I really need to make time and distance. With my 2017 Chevy Colorado diesel, I average 30 mpg round trip if I keep it under 80 and mid 20’s round trip on longer weekend road trips of slightly less than 1000 miles. Since beginning my plans for an Aptera EV, I have noticed that I almost never use more than 75% of my diesel range although I can refuel the diesel to 100% each time I fuel. My Aptera may well end up saving my diesel. Irony.

        • Peter Jorgensen

          Member
          November 22, 2021 at 1:23 pm

          Don’t worry about EV road tripping. You just charge on the road – It’s not a big deal. I do a road trip about once a month or so that are 500-2000 miles long with a 300 mile range EV. That includes BLM camping out in the desert with the heater or AC running all night. Just use A Better Route Planner and type in your destination and it tells you where to go and charge. They have added Aptera to the planner already. It’s like google maps except it tells you where to charge. Just take a breather and eat a burrito while you rest for 20-30 minutes. It’s pretty painless and gives you a good chance to take a quick rest.

          https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

          Also, by the time Aptera is on sale the Tesla network should be open to everyone by using a CCS1 adapter in North America. They are planning to open it by the end of the year.

          • DON RASKY

            Member
            November 22, 2021 at 3:52 pm

            Many thanks. I’ve been using the better route planner the past few days to work through routes to the Grand Canyon, Williams AZ, and Milwaukee. When visiting the canyon I do make at least one 20 to 30 min stop anyway. I guess the strangest things for me to adjust to is not using the upper 10 to 20% of the battery range and possibly needing to avoid the lesser traveled routes unless I opted for a really big battery. Still, even the 400 mile range all wheel drive Aptera would save me enough money to tow the Aptera to regions I want to explore and it would cover my regional commutes nicely. The more I can learn about how others are managing with real ranges of 300 miles or less the more use I can make of the Aptera. I’d much rather tow an Aptera to a region to explore than to tow a boat or a jet ski. I also want to make sure that I maximize the life of my Aptera as on average I’ve kept each of my vehicles for 13 years or more. I’m fine with rebuilding vehicle powertrains be they liquid or electron fuel. I really just want to be sure that I can always enjoy this great country of ours while being able to afford to fuel and/or recharge my ride. Again, many thanks for the perspective and the insight.

            • Paul Kirchner

              Member
              November 22, 2021 at 4:58 pm

              I don’t own an EV so excuse the ignorance. Wouldn’t it be okay to charge to 100% when you do a long trip and once back home resume the normal 20-80% routine. Can’t permanently harm the system that much to take it to 100% every so often, correct?

            • DON RASKY

              Member
              November 22, 2021 at 6:02 pm

              That is where I struggle a bit too not having owned an EV yet. I’m told that there are two reasons for not charging to 90 to 100%. Other than the initial departure from home, charging to 100% I hear is impractical due to how slow public chargers charge much above a certain percentage (60-80%, I think). If charged above 90% the regeneration breaking may have nowhere to go leaving you with the friction brakes alone until you’ve driven enough for the regen braking to have somewhere to put the power generated when braking. These are not deal breakers for me but they do require changes to my “just pick a direction and go” wanderlust sometimes just to see what’s there along and at the end of the journey. If nothing else, having a regional commuter that saves me several hundred dollars a month on fuel costs would still be reason enough to purchase an Aptera.

            • Curtis Cibinel

              Member
              November 22, 2021 at 8:44 pm

              The occasional less than optimal usage isn’t going to instantly kill your battery. The older 18650 cells for the model s/x have pretty good data at this point and the typical loss at 200,000 miles is about 8-10%. The model 3 and y use a very similar 2170 and have similar patterns based on existing data. Not everyone will baby the battery to the same degree so in general the issue is just not that big. Now this all assumed that the thermal management system for the Aptera is comparable to a tesla because doing next to nothing like the leaf doesn’t do well.

            • Joel Smith

              Member
              November 23, 2021 at 6:30 am

              Paul,

              Don’t let all the talk about 80-20 or 80-30 SOC spook you. As I understand it, the standard charge cycle for testing Lithium batteries is 100% to 20% and then back. So if you were to actually use that as a typical charging cycle you are still going to get the rated number of charge cycles; typically reckoned to be 1000 to 1500 charge cycles for better quality cells. For just the 40kWh version of the Aptera that’s 320,000 to 480,000 miles which I’d suggest is a pretty good run for any modern car before an overhaul.

              Setting aside the fact that dropping below 20% SOC more than extremely rarely is a definite battery killer, all the other talk about keeping below 80%, or above 30%, or avoiding fast charging, etc. is all just about how you might eek even more longevity out of the battery. A battery that may simply age into reduced capacity in ten or 15 years regardless of your charging habits.

            • Joshua Rosen

              Member
              November 23, 2021 at 7:36 am

              If you set the charge level above 90% you get a warning in a Tesla. Charging to 100% is bad, it cuts the life of the battery in half vs 90%. Some brands have very large buffers which reduces the available range but prevents users from overcharging the battery pack, in that case charging to an indicated 100% isn’t as bad because the real level is lower. We don’t know what Aptera’s approach is going to be but I’d speculate that it will be Tesla like not VW like because they are emphasizing range. If they follow Tesla’s lead you will want to avoid charging beyond 90% and preferably keep it around 80%.

              There is another reason to keep the charge level low. Regen braking doesn’t work with a fully charged battery, there has to be a place to dump the electricity and if the battery is full there is no place to put it. On a Tesla even at 90% you will get a Regen Braking Reduced warning until you’ve driven for a while. Regen generates a lot of power, something like 50KW, and the rate at which a battery can charge drops as it fills, regen braking is also reduced when the battery is cold, that’s because cold batteries can’t be charged as fast.

              With an Aptera if you live in a sunny place you should charge to an even lower level when charging from the wall so that you leave room to store solar energy. Hopefully they will have two setable charge levels, one for wall charging and one for solar but if they don’t do that then you will have to charge to the low level and then unplug it and let the solar cells do their work.

              Finally there is no reason to charge past 75-80% for daily driving. Most people will drive less than 100 miles in a day when they are at home. It’s only on road trips that you need to set the level higher and that’s dependent on the availability of DC chargers on your route. Driving more than a couple of hours at a stretch is uncomfortable, planning stops at fast chargers where you can go to the bathroom or get a snack while you charge allows you to add 100-150 miles of range while you take your break which is all you need. EV charge stops are not like gas station stops, you don’t fill your tank you just get enough so that you can get to your next destination. In my Tesla those stops are around 15 minutes which is the time it takes for us to walk to the bathroom, do our business, and walk back.

            • Peter Jorgensen

              Member
              November 23, 2021 at 7:19 am

              Stopping charging on road trips below 100% charge has nothing to do with battery life – it’s about charge time. DC fast charging goes fastest at low power levels. 20 to 60% takes about 20 minutes. 90 to 100 takes a full hour. To maximize your road trips pull in at 20% and leave at 65 or whenever peak power levels start dropping off. I usually won’t go above 85% unless I really really need range. Once I was solo driving at night and was asleep in the back at the charger and didn’t wake up until it hit 100% and the cooling fan shut off. There’s nothing wrong with it – the car just slows way down to protect the battery. As long as you’re not doing it all the time it won’t make much difference. Here’s a typical charging curve for a Kia Niro EV (270-300 mile range, 67 kwh battery, 78kw max power.) The yellow line is on a 50kw charger so would be basically what I expect from Aptera.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    November 23, 2021 at 7:58 am

    Charging to 100% is bad, it’s not true that it doesn’t reduce battery life. Here is an up to date paper on the subject, the lower the level the longer the life. It turns out that that’s true for LFPs also, I had thought it wasn’t because Tesla recommends charging LFPs to 100%. LFPs start with a much longer life than NMC and it’s much harder for the battery management system to figure out what their charge level is because they have a flat voltage curve as they discharge, the voltage of NMCs drops as they are discharge which makes it easy to figure out the charge level. Tesla may be recommending 100% on LFPs because they figure the life is long enough even at 100% that the tradeoff is worth it to keep the BMS calibrated.

    https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries

    https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-1003a-battery-aging-in-an-electric-vehicle-ev

    • Peter Jorgensen

      Member
      November 23, 2021 at 9:02 am

      Thanks for sharing these articles.

      It may not always be true 100% if there’s a battery buffer. For instance, charging a Niro EV to “100%” charges it to 64 kwh with a 67 kwh battery, so it’s technically only 95.5% charged at a full charge. The general consensus, however, is if you need 100% to just use it. The manufacturers put in a buffer in some cases. It really depends on a lot of things we don’t really know yet about Aptera.

      I thought the long-term storage at very low states of charge part was very interesting – and the ability to reverse capacity fade by storing it at low charge levels?

Viewing 1 - 5 of 5 replies

or to reply.

Original Post
0 of 0 posts June 2018
Now